Jeff Wurzburg, Senior Counsel, Norton Rose Fulbright, speaks to Lori Mihalich-Levin, Partner, Dentons and Founder of Mindful Return, Yusuf Zakir, Director of Diversity and Inclusion, Holland & Knight LLP, and Steve Seckler, President, Seckler Legal Recruiting and Coaching, about how the COVID-19 public health crisis abruptly changed the outlook for 2020 and created new challenges for business and professional development. The speakers discuss the ways in which attorneys and other health law professionals at all stages of their legal careers are dealing with these challenges, including how to network while dealing with issues such as reduced legal budgets, social distancing, and prohibitions on travel. The speakers also discuss how lawyers can address issues around racism and diversity. From AHLA’s Payers, Plans, and Managed Care Practice Group. The Practice Group thanks Melissa Wong, Partner, Holland & Knight LLP, for contributing to the creation of this podcast.
To learn more about AHLA and the educational resources available to the health law community, visit americanhealthlaw.org.
Jeff Wurzburg, Senior Counsel, Norton Rose Fulbright, speaks to Lori Mihalich-Levin, Partner, Dentons and Founder of Mindful Return, Yusuf Zakir, Director of Diversity and Inclusion, Holland & Knight LLP, and Steve Seckler, President, Seckler Legal Recruiting and Coaching, about how the COVID-19 public health crisis abruptly changed the outlook for 2020 and created new challenges for business and professional development. The speakers discuss the ways in which attorneys and other health law professionals at all stages of their legal careers are dealing with these challenges, including how to network while dealing with issues such as reduced legal budgets, social distancing, and prohibitions on travel. The speakers also discuss how lawyers can address issues around racism and diversity. From AHLA’s Payers, Plans, and Managed Care Practice Group. The Practice Group thanks Melissa Wong, Partner, Holland & Knight LLP, for contributing to the creation of this podcast.
To learn more about AHLA and the educational resources available to the health law community, visit americanhealthlaw.org.
Hi, my name's Jeff Warberg. I'm an attorney with Norton Rose Fulbright, and welcome to Professional Development in a Crisis sponsored by the payers plans and managed care practice group. Ppmc, as we like to call it, keeps you up to date on all legal issues concerning health plans, insurers, third party administrators, pharmacy benefit managers, and other hybrid organizations. And we hope that this will provide you with some interesting insights and thoughts about professional development during this very challenging and unique time that we're all experiencing. Uh, so again, my name's Jeff Warberg, and I'm a senior council with Norton Rose Fulbright in our San Antonio and Washington DC offices. And, uh, I'm excited to introduce you to our other panelists today.
Speaker 2:Great, Jeff, this is Lori Mahalick Levin. It's a real pleasure to be here. Thanks so much for inviting me, Jeff. Um, I'm a partner at Dentons in the Washington DC office in the group in the farm's healthcare practice, where I practice on a 50% schedule. And in the other 50% of my professional work week, I run a program called Mindful Return that helps new parents transition back to work after parental leave. And that during Covid has been helping a lot of working parents just navigate the current crisis. I also have two wonderful red-headed boys who are ages seven and nine and currently remote, uh, schooling in second and fourth grade.
Speaker 3:Everyone, uh, this is the of Secure. Um, I'm the director of Diversity and Inclusion at Holland and Knight. I've been in the diversity, equity and inclusion space for about, uh, five years now. Prior to that, I've been, I spent another five years or so as a litigator at Laton and Watkins and Clerk in the Central District of California as well. And I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 4:Hi, I'm Steve Sackler. I'm president of Sackler Legal Recruiting and Coaching. I'm located in the Boston area, and I've been not practicing law since more than 30 years ago, graduating from law school. Uh, I recruit partners, associates and in-house council for law firms and life sciences companies. And I also coach lawyers on their careers and on marketing. And I have my own podcast counsel to counsel.
Speaker 1:Terrific. Well, uh, thank you all for joining today. And, uh, we're, we're seven month in months into this pandemic, and so much of our lives have, have changed, uh, personally and professionally. Uh, Lori, you mentioned your, your children. I have four and a half year old twins who are home with us and, and make every day, uh, obviously very enjoyable, but also very challenging. Uh, and so this, this idea of balance has really been, been challenged. Uh, I would love it if, if all of you could talk about the biggest change that you've seen, uh, to the legal industry to, to your practices, uh, and are these permanent changes for the legal industry?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Jeff. Um, there are definitely silver linings to having the children here, and there's no silver bullet to making it all work. Um, I think generally speaking, I mean, you're, you're asking big picture in the legal industry, what changes have we seen? Um, we've seen work life mush. I think in terms of everybody, um, just really having a struggle drawing boundaries. I've never been a fan of that term balance. I think I just wanna call it life in general, or work life integration perhaps is less offensive. Um, but I think right now, uh, what we've seen is one, the complete possibility to work remotely in a way that I think many people just had been skeptical about previously. Um, and that I do think will continue after the pandemic is over. Um, and two, the, uh, obvious nature of the rest of life showing up in the screen all the time. And I'm hopeful that the rest of life won't be forgotten even after the pandemic is over.
Speaker 3:I, I agree with you, Laurie. I mean, I think that there's, I think there's a recognition that what we're all trying to do here is really hard, right? And I know many of us are privileged and we're lucky to have professions where we can remote work remotely. I mean, I think that's a privilege. Uh, at the same time, I don't think we can discount, and I don't think we should discount the challenges. I mean, when we were in the first month of this pandemic, I, I think most folks thought it'd be over relatively quickly. I mean, I certainly thought that myself. And so we tried to keep all the plates spinning as much as possible. But, you know, being seven months into it now, which is even hard to say, I, I think we recognize how much of a toll that has had on us. I mean, at the end of the day, you know, we're just trying to do our best to keep things going. You know, small kids at home, for some of us, others are caring for elders, others are immunocompromised and maybe in a high risk category, others are just on their own and lonely. And so while we're dealing with this, I mean, we're still expected to perform and be there for our clients and colleagues, but I think there's a recognition that, you know, I see you, I, I hear you. I know how hard this is. And, and we're in this together. And that's a pretty powerful transformation, especially for the legal industry, I think.
Speaker 4:Well, I agree with what everybody is saying. For me, the silver lining is that I had three adult children who descended on our house in March and didn't leave for the most part till the end of August, which was pretty unexpected. It was great for us. I'm not so sure how great it was for our kids, but the idea that there's actually work to be done, that's what's really surprised me the most actually. The fact that a lot of the lawyers that I speak to are pretty busy. And while they are juggling things that they weren't juggling before, they are busy enough that they don't have to worry about losing their jobs. At least a lot of the lawyers I speak to. The other thing that I've noticed is that because a lot of us, us have started to work on Zoom in a way that we hadn't before, we're getting to know each other in, in ways that we might not have otherwise. And this is a little bit less true right now, but certainly at the beginning of the pandemic, I was finding that the quality of my conversations and my relationships got a lot deeper. I was finding out personal things about people that I didn't know. People were not only checking with each other, but they were also giving us visual cues as to what their interests are, what their lives are like. So I think that's been a good thing.
Speaker 1:Lori, I, I thank you all for those answers. Those were great, Lori. I, I think it is fair to say that, that for those of us trying to come up with some semblance of, of balance in, in terms of taking care of loved ones, uh, young or, or old, and managing these professional obligations, uh, have been very stressful for a lot of people. And, and we're not gonna see that immediate return to normal anytime soon. You, you think back to March, and the idea was, well, a month from now, we'll, we'll be back to where we are, we'll be in the office, et cetera. Um, you're the expert on this. I, I know a lot of people listening have probably read your, your book and are aware of, uh, your, your insights. What advice do you have to not just survive, uh, which some might say is enough right now, but but also thrive both professionally and personally right now? Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:That's a great question, Jeff. Um, and I can totally relate to the beginning of the pandemic versus now. I remember when Maryland public schools shut down, but DC hadn't yet at the very beginning. And I remember calling up a friend and saying, haha, did you see Maryland shut down for two weeks? I would die if that happened to me.<laugh>, that was like, oh, really? Oh, really? Um, but to your point of survive and thrive, I mean, I think Thrive is off the table for a lot of working parents right now, particularly those who are trying to play tech support, teacher, babysitter, you know, chef, all of the things at once. So I think my first suggestion, and I'll just offer three suggestions here, is really to lower the bar and shoot for sustainability and survival and survival can now equal success. I know that that is a really tough concept for lawyers to get our heads around because we're, you know, the over eager type a overperforming professionals who have all the degrees, and we have to do the extra, extra extra. And right now, if we do the extra, extra extra, we're just going to reach burnout pretty much every day. And so I want us to go back down the Maslow's hierarchy of needs a little bit and recognize that putting one foot in front of the other and getting through the day is gonna be enough. Um, the, the second thing I wanted to offer is that I think now is a time for us to dig deep into time management strategies that work. Um, and I'll just offer one up here that tends to resonate with people I, I talk to, it's the Pomodoro method, which many of you might have heard of. It's based on the concept of like the Italian pomodoro tomato and the tomato timer that you might find in your kitchen. And the concept is that you set a timer, any timer for 25 minutes, and you work on one project and one project only for with all the things that might possibly ding at you during that 25 minute period, like turned off. So you have that sustained focus on exactly one thing during the 25 minute period. And then you take a five to 10 minute break and then come back to it again. And if you get distracted, if someone interrupts you, if you think of the other thing you're supposed to be working on, you just write it down, you manage the distraction, and then you come back to the thing that you were working on. So I find that sort of, those short bursts of time when you know you're able to work can really help to focus on, like, those couple of items that, you know, you have to get done in a day. I wouldn't recommend using this Pomodoro method, like while you're also supervising remote school in the morning or whatever. But, um, it can be a way to like feel as though you did accomplish something in your day. And then the last thing that I'll, I'll put out there is, you know, we're, we're learning skills right now around things that we previously may not have had to learn skills around, around sustainability, around avoiding burnout. And I think taking that time for yourself can be so, so, so critical, and that we're just not doing, I mean, we could spend an entire hour just talking about how to shut down at night so that we're not working into the wee hours, um, cuz we need sleep and we need to replenish ourselves. But I, I would put a challenge out to you to find that one time during the week when you have carved out a space for only yourself. My husband and I, we swap three hours each on weekends. So I get three hours on Saturday, he gets three hours on Sunday. Sometimes I wonder the neighborhood, sometimes I take a nap, sometimes I read a book. You know, um, just something to rejuvenate ourselves I think has to be built into the weaken is, you know, uh, a thing that just can't get canceled right now.
Speaker 3:I, I think I would, I would say that I agree with that. I mean, you know, I think that the overall theme and, and what Gloria is sharing, I think is we just need to be a little bit kinder to ourselves. I think that it's hard for us to do that, right? And especially like she said, for legal professionals, it's very difficult to think that we're, or even perceive that we're changing our standards, but we are in the midst of a pandemic, right? We are in the midst of an economic downturn. All these things are real. Uh, and I think we've tried to work through it, um, and we have worked through it and, uh, we've continued to sort of operate as much as business, as usual as possible. But I think that that's a really difficult thing to do. And I think at the end of the day, we just need to be a little bit kinder to ourselves. That that itself independently can help us, um, go through each day. I mean, in the pandemic, I feel like time is warped, right? Everything is sort of relative. There's only three days in the week. It's, you know, yesterday, today, and tomorrow. Um, and I think we need to recognize that and be able to kind of, to ourselves,
Speaker 4:I would echo what everybody's saying and I would just underscore it even more. I mean, Laurie talked about making sure you save time in the week. I would argue that just try to find at least a few minutes every day. I wake up every morning and the first thing I do is meditate on days that I'm able to, I try to take a walk. I understand that I don't have the same constraints that people with small children or elders right in the house have. But I tell all my coaching clients, even those that have those sit living situations to try to make that time in the morning, particularly, cuz it's easy to let it slide if you don't do that. The other thing is to try to avoid doom scrolling. I don't know if anybody has seen that word yet. It's in Webster's now, I think. And it's basically spending time on social media and reading about the latest horror show. And I won't get political or talk about anything specific, but let's just say there's a lot of things beyond the epidemic that have, uh, beyond the pandemic that are, are, that can be quite distressing to us.
Speaker 1:Great, great insights and, and use of, uh, your point about being kind not only to, to yourself. I, I've found a few instances where I think people are being kinder to, to others. Uh, I know early on in the pandemic, I actually was in a remote hearing and my, my daughter who thinks the boundaries are for suckers, uh, burst into my room and says, daddy, daddy, daddy and I, I quickly mute and I, I calmly, you know, push her back out the door, come back, sit down, and the judge says, Mr. Warberg, what are your thoughts on that? And I, I said, I just had to be honest. And I said, your Honor, I'm, I'm so sorry. My, my four-year-old daughter came in and I, I, I missed the question, and he could not have been kinder. And I really was very concerned about what was about to, to happen. So I, I do wonder if that is one of the things that I hope will continue over time as people being kinder, uh, professionally and, and personally to, to each other. Steve, making a professional transition is always very stressful, whether it's during a pandemic or, uh, pre pandemic times. Um, obviously we're dealing with some new challenges here. What advice do you have for anyone looking to make a transition, whether earlier in their career or, or even later in their career?
Speaker 4:So, believe it or not, there is lateral movement going on. I've placed two candidates in the last few months who never met in person with the firms that they were moving to. Uh, having said that, I think the lateral market has slowed down a bit. The, I think the hard part about job hunting in this kind of an environment is that I always give this advice to people. Sure, recruiters can help you, but if you really want to effectively manage your career, you want to be building relationships. And the people that are being actively involved in organizations like this who are getting to know other professionals, those are the people who are gonna find that their careers really thrive into the future. The, the challenge is that in this environment, it's very hard to connect with people. So you have to make, make much more of an effort to get to know people. You have to make much more of an effort to connect. And if you attend professional association meetings, look for smaller gatherings where there are people together on Zoom that you could see, and then reach out to them and try to connect with them. I've done that at a few Bar Association meetings. I've enjoyed hearing one of the speakers. I send something through to them through the chat window and would love to chat with you afterwards. I'll send you an email. Is that okay? So I think we have to be a lot more, more assertive about building our relationships, and it's through our relationships that I've always told people that's the most effective job search that you can wage.
Speaker 2:This is Lori. I just wanna jump in and echo what you said, Steve, that it, you know, there are ways that you can still target, um, that relationship building time. And I almost think that the, the admission price for like getting a coffee or a a lunch on the calendar has gone way down. Um, you know, it used to be that if someone, you know, reached out and said, Hey, you know, I wanna pick your brain over lunch or whatever, we'd be looking three, four weeks out, maybe two months out to get a date on the calendar. Now, you know, somebody can reach out and say, can we do Zoom for 15 minutes? And like, we can do that tomorrow or the next day. You know, it's, you don't have to take half the day to have a meeting with someone anymore. You can just sort of pop in and out much more easily. And so I think some of those networking opportunities are easier right now.
Speaker 3:I was actually gonna agree with Lori on that. I think that it's, what's interesting is that, you know, you're no longer bound to your geography, right? Um, mm-hmm.<affirmative>. And you can develop meaningful relationships with people halfway across the world because we're all just used to using those same tools to connect now. Um, and I've had, I've experienced that a bit where folks that I may have had to be in their city to connect with, um, I've been able to get on that 15, 20 minute zoom call and start to, you know, build a relationship with somebody that may have otherwise been very difficult to do. And so it's the in-person, I don't think you can ever truly replace in-person connection right, at the end of the day. But to sort of see the bright side of things in this pandemic, I think you're able to scale out, uh, your efforts to connect in a much broader way.
Speaker 4:I will add though, that I have been trying to make an effort, at least now, while the weather is nice, at least in the Boston area, to get out on socially distant walks with, with people, I happen to live in a neighborhood that has a lot of lawyers and I'm in metro Boston. And there's a lot of ways to get to see people in person where you don't have to be sitting in a restaurant. So I wouldn't eliminate those. If you have the opportunity to connect with people in person,
Speaker 1:I always advise people that networking and, and building relationships is no different than building a a friendship. I think oftentimes, especially those earlier in your career, uh, think that, oh, I'm gonna meet someone and they're gonna gimme a job on the spot or the first time that I meet them. Uh, and it's really just planting a seed and you have to build that relationship and grow that relationship, uh, just as you would a, a friendship. I, I'd love to hear from, from all of you, maybe starting a, again with Steve, how do you, what, what advice do you have for someone who maybe is trying to plant that seed, but you're not gonna have that, uh, reason for the run in at a conference or, uh, some other professional interaction that might open the door for someone to creating opportunities, uh, to build those, those relationships?
Speaker 4:There are a lot of ways to, to cultivate relationships that don't cost money. I mean, I could go through a long, long list. I mean, one of the, this is a little bit extreme, but one of the things that I do, I do my own podcast council to council. And honestly, you know, I I just hit a pretty significant number of downloads that I was very proud of, but it's not really why I do it. The reason that I do the podcast is that it gives me the opportunity to connect with people who I want to get to know and who I want to learn something from. So, to me, the most important part of that doing a podcast is having my audience of one. You could write articles and you can try to solicit input from people. You can just keep your eyes and ears out for things that you know, people are interested in and send them stuff. There's a lot of ways to connect with people, and a, as you connect with people and you learn more about them personally, that gives you even more clues and more ways to connect. So those are just some very surface suggestions.
Speaker 1:Lawyer, Yusuf have, have either of you encountered, uh, interesting or unique opportunities along the way the, the last several months where, um, perhaps it's just been an interesting Zoom event that you've, uh, seen or taken part in where people were able to connect? Or perhaps someone has made an outreach to you and you thought, well, you know, that was, that was a good idea.
Speaker 2:Happy to jump in here. Um, definitely, I guess I was going to say before I forgot to take myself off of mute that, um, first of all, like, definitely use LinkedIn. You know, I think LinkedIn is like the magic machine for this type of connection where you can go through and you can find all these points of commonality. Oh, you used to work at the same, I did. Oh, you know, we both went to the same college, you know, and then you can reach out and say, we both went to the same college. Let's have a, you know, zoom coffee. But just as a specific example, I run a group called the Working Parent Group Network, which I founded last summer, and it's just for people who run affinity groups and employee resource groups, um, for caregivers and for parents. And I founded it because I was leading the group at Dentons and I wanted to connect with other people doing the same thing. And, you know, the group grew over the past, um, year, and we'd had maybe one phone call every three months, but there was no, you know, impetus for us to all get on Zoom together or see each other. And, um, we started, you know, just last month transitioning from phone over to Zoom and, you know, it was just this much more intimate conversation among everyone. There were so many more connections that were made because people could see each other, they could write into the chat. And then after the meeting happened, you know, I got a whole number of new signups to the group because it was such an energizing event that all these more people wanted to, you know, join the conversation. So, um, I do think that there's an opportunity here to feel like you're a part of a community in a way that might have been a little bit more disconnected by phone in the past.
Speaker 4:I think looking for communities that are doing a good job of being online is very important. There are some associations that have not made the transition well, and then there are others that have, I mean, if you're just watching a webinar, you're not really connecting to people probably, unless it's on Zoom as a meeting. So people that know me know that I'm almost like a cult member of, of, of Visors. Provisors is a business networking group that I talk about incessantly. And the reason that I love it, it, it's lawyers, accountants, trusted advisors of all kinds that have at least 10 years of experience. And there are chapters all over the country. And what visors has done really well is bring people together in these Zoom meetings and really make an effort to find ways that people can get to know, like, and trust each other. And sometimes we do that just by, I don't know, there was a, a group that spun off and, and set up an opportunity to play cards with each other online. There was one of my, my home group set up an opportunity to have sort of a virtual coffee, um, you know, uh, cocktail hour where they, they everybody submitted songs that they liked. The group tends to lean a little bit older, so we had a lot of music from the seventies and eighties. But, uh, finding groups like that where you can continue to cultivate new relationships is still quite possible, but you have to really look for them.
Speaker 3:I think that's, I think that's right, and I think that one of the things that I've seen on that point is almost also in ability to reconnect and recalibrate that works, that, um, we're sort of struggling prior to the Pandemic. One example, you know, we, we have a group of diversity equity inclusion professionals in the Los Angeles area. Um, and we often tried to get together in person, and it was always really difficult, um, uh, for scheduling reasons. And, you know, well since the pandemic started, we were on a call every single week. Um, uh, people would come in an hour in the afternoon and we'd come in and we'd talk and we'd sort of commiserate together. And I think it was a group that, you know, was almost impossible to get together in person, but that we could make work because of the situation that we were, were in. Um, uh, to Lori's point, you know, our, at Holland and Night, we've, um, created sort of these, uh, circles for parents, specifically working parents. And, um, I, I know that, you know, nobody wants another Zoom meeting, but at the same time, there's some benefit to being able to commiserate and share ideas and share resources and learn from each other because the situation we're in is a truly unprecedented, there's no playbook for it. Um, and so we can learn a lot from each other. And I think that that is really, really important because it, not only can you learn from folks, but there's also the professional development aspect of it where you can, uh, get connected with people that you may not have otherwise connected with because you have this common, um, challenge that you're confronting together.
Speaker 4:I think what what Lori has done is really impressive, just finding an interest in creating her own group. I mean, one of the great things about Zoom is it's so easy to just create a group and set it up, and you don't have to worry about the physical distance, as Yusef was saying. So set up a group that's of common interest, whether it it's something personal or professional, you can get together with people and cultivate relationships. Again, it requires a certain level of assertiveness and take charge, but it's not that hard to do.
Speaker 1:And, and I want to talk more about, um, caregivers, especially with regard to professional obligations. So, we'll, we'll come back to that, uh, in a moment, but Lori, you've made a career move the last few years, um, clearly leaning into something that you're very passionate about and very knowledgeable about. And I would love for you to share a little bit about maybe how that came about, why that came about, and, and what advice you have for others, whether in the legal profession or not, who are thinking, you know, maybe there's another aspect to my career, um, outside of, of just the practice of law on a day-to-day basis that I'd like to explore during this, this unique time.
Speaker 2:Sure. Jeff, happy to tell that story. Um, I guess I'd start off by saying that there is actual research out there that shows that people who start side projects, side hustles that sort of thing, often find, um, that their happiness level in their day job goes up because they've found an outlet for some of the, um, the passions and interests, uh, that they were perhaps looking for in their job, but the, the job didn't provide. And so, um, I can just say, I'll tell you the origin or birth story of mindful return, but for me, I love, um, the intellectual stimulation and the analytical reasoning of my legal practice. And I love the creativity and the mentoring and the blogging and all of that that I do on the mindful return side. So for me, they sort of, the skills compliment each other. Um, you know, basically I created mindful return out of sheer desperation. I had one child and returned to work full-time after maternity leave. I was at a trade ASAs, uh, trade association at the time, um, and I found it to be challenging. And then I had my second baby two years later, and, you know, at, in our house, we said one plus one felt like 85, the wheels were coming off<laugh>, things were not going well,<laugh>. And I looked around and, you know, the advice that I had gotten about going back to work after parental leave was all what I could find on Google at the time, which was pretty much, don't put a picture of your baby on your desk, or people might not take you seriously until you might leak on your shirt. And I was like, this is not helpful people. Um, and so basically I set out to create what I wished had existed for me to help me navigate the transition. And I sort of started becoming a, a, you know, a serial founder of working parent groups and really an advocate for the parents in, in my office because I was feeling so passionate about that topic at the time. Um, I sat down in my bed one night and said like, I have something to say about this topic, and I'm gonna write a blog post. And then I sat there and my hands were shaking at the laptop, and I'm like, oh my gosh, what am I, how does one write a blog post? I don't know. And so I just sort of started and, you know, followed one step after another after another. It was a baby passion project of 20 minutes a night for the first six months or so. And it wasn't until I did it for about a year and a half that I made a transition from my full-time role in-house to a then 60% schedule at the law firm. That was a move I made specifically so that I could have some daylight hours to grow mindful return.
Speaker 4:You know, I'm guessing that, that because you're so passionate about this, Lori, I bet it's been very good for your business development on the legal side. I mean, you don't have to tell us whether it has or hasn't been, but I'm always telling my clients that I coach on marketing to be authentic<affirmative>. And sometimes, sometimes lawyers are very anxious about that. They feel like, well, like you just said, I don't want them to think I'm a a, a mother and then a lawyer, and that I'm not serious. But by being authentic, I bet you attract more in business than you have in the past.
Speaker 2:Yes. I think it actually helps the abundance on both sides. It's sort of a virtuous cycle. So, um, you know, my legal clients know the rest of my life and are, you know, feeling more intimate with me and able to share and build trust really quickly. And then on the mindful return side, um, you know, there are 67 different employers that offer mindful return as a parental leave benefit, two thirds of which are law firms, and the law firms are, but like, oh, she's a lawyer, she's a partner at a firm, she gets it, she gets my people, you know, and so it's easier to grow the mindful four return business, um, you know, with that base of experience in the law firm as well. So they sort of feed off of each other.
Speaker 3:I think that authenticity is super important and, and I think it is hard, right? Like it, you know, it, we tend to censor ourselves. And one thing that I've really tried to do and, and on LinkedIn especially, is to be as authentic as possible in sharing my opinions and thoughts on things. And, um, sometimes, you know, these things can be difficult for people to hear. Um, but if I feel that at the end of the day it helps elevate the conversation and helps our ability to be able to be our authentic selves, which is, you know, one of the, the best things that any organization can do, right, is to, is to create a space, um, where folks feel that they can do be that way and don't have to feel that they have to cover parts of their identity of who they are. Um, because that's when you can truly be the most successful, I think.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Amen. 100%. To the extent we can normalize talking about all the different aspects of our lives, that's sort of why I'm out and loud about it so that other people feel comfortable doing it as well.
Speaker 1:So a actually that's a, a great pivot because I, I wanted to be sure that we talked about, um, current events and what that has meant on our industry. And, uh, without getting into, into Doom strolling, is, uh, Steve mentioned, obviously the last several months have put a renewed focus on diversity and inclusion within the legal profession and Yousif. Uh, I would love to hear from you, um, about how we make it stick and how we ensure that, uh, as time goes on, we don't pivot away from these, um, very worthy goals and endeavors that the profession has set for themselves, uh, the last few months. And what are some of the creative approaches that, that you're seeing, uh, firms and other offices take?
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, this, uh, you're right. I mean, this has been an unprecedented year, right? I mean, we have, uh, we started with a global pandemic, an economic downturn, and now we have a renewed call for racial justice, um, in the wake of the murder of George Floyd. And there's a common thread right throughout all of these challenges, and that's the disproportionate impact of systemic inequality on communities and people of color. Um, and I think the murder of George Floyd really woke this nation up in a way that we've never seen before, at least not in, in our, you know, modern sort of history. And I think it's important to understand the context, right? Like this, there's centuries of systemic racism and oppression that continue to have very real consequences for black people, for people of color beyond the murders that we see in the news. And thinking about healthcare specifically, right? For, you know, for leading causes of death, black Americans faced higher fatality rates than, than white Americans, even when socioeconomic status is controlled. Um, racism and discrimination have a well-documented impact on the health of underrepresented populations. And the pandemic has spotlighted this, right, you know, with black and Hispanic populations being, you know, twice as likely, if not more, to be killed by covid 19. Um, at the same time, we also see the rise in anti-Asian discrimination right in the face of the pandemic with over 2000, uh, hate incidents reported in the last several months. Um, and I also worry about the equity gaps that are being created, right? This economic downturn has, uh, caused by Covid 19 has impacted underrepresented populations at a disproportionately higher rate, which means that, you know, many have lost their jobs and their homes. You know, we see instances of children not having access to internet or devices to be able to attend virtual school or not having a home even in which they can study. And so this is going to just widen the equity gaps that we already experienced. And the reason I'm, you know, talking about all of this is we have to consider the context, right? We have to understand the context of the challenge that we're dealing with, and the, and our, and our response has to be, um, adequate to that context. And I think the legal profession, uh, is responding in, in an entirely new way from what, what I've seen over the last several months. Um, a couple of examples. First, you know, more than 200 law firms, um, have joined the law firm Anti-Racism Alliance. We've created a new alliance that's a consortium of law firms committed to dismantling racism. This in itself is independently extraordinary, um, but the consortium has the resources and the firepower really to be able to address issues around racism and to, to galvanize our pro bono efforts in an entirely new way. I also think that law firms are thinking a lot more critically about their, uh, equity, diversity, and inclusion efforts. Um, I, there's a, they're coming around to recognition that this cannot be done in a silo, right? It's not solely the responsibility of the diversity person or the diversity team to solve this. I mean, this is something that has to be scaled out across the organization, and I, and leadership in the organization has to be invested in the work and has to accelerate it. And I think we're coming around to firms, you know, majority of firms now, I think considering this, factoring it in being truly accountable in the way that they do this work. And I think the time has come right for these conversations that I think the profession is having a real reckoning, I think, in a, in a very positive way.
Speaker 1:O one of the, uh, one of the reasons I've always felt that being a, a lawyer is a compelling and meaningful profession, is that we've always been at the forefront of social justice and, and civil rights. And it's been very interesting to see our profession try and meet the moment these, these past several months. Uh, I, I'm curious, Steven, in terms of what you're seeing from the recruitment side, um, are you seeing any interesting efforts in, in terms of, uh, appealing to, uh, professionals that, that have an interest in this? And, and what are employers doing to try and show that they are on the right side of history?
Speaker 4:Well, I've been in the recruiting business for over 20 years, and the issue of trying to increase diversity is not new. Although many of us have now woken up and realized that it's much more urgent and timely. I think that law firms are now going to pay even more attention to this, in my opinion. I think where the best inroads can be, can be made, at least initially, especially for the larger law firms, is at the point of entry, because I only deal with lateral hiring. And if I get a, a call from Holland tonight, or any of your firms, you're gonna want to see somebody that's been trained up at a big law firm already. And if the person wasn't there to begin with, you have a pipeline that isn't filled enough. Now, I also live in a part of the country, Boston, which is very liberal. However, it's not very diverse. We've gotten more diverse, but we're not that diverse. So it continues to be a big challenge, but certainly the awareness is, is greater. I think a big challenge for a lot of law firms, and I'm sure Yusuf is more aware of this than than I am, is the inclu the inclusion piece, which is now that people are separated, you're not, you don't even have those opportunities for the informal water cooler chats. So people are just gravitating towards the people that they feel most comfortable with. And I'd be curious to hear what are some of the ways that firms like Holland De Knight in Dentons are trying to deal with that issue?
Speaker 3:Uh, it's a great point, and I think that we always, you know, when it comes to conversations around, uh, de and I, you know, it's a holistic approach is required, right? And I think a lot of the history of this work in law firms has always focused on the diversity piece, right? Um, looking at representation in numbers and looking at demo demographics in an organization. And the work is, if you look at the scale of the work and the, the timescale of it, it's a relatively new, still in the legal industry. And I think there's been a recognition in recent years that just focusing simply on the diversity portion of it is insufficient, right? Um, there needs to be a focus on equity and on inclusion. And the way that I think about those things is that there's really just, it really boils down to a few discrete challenges in almost every single legal institution. I think that's, you know, access to, uh, work opportunities, whether that's actual work recline opportunities, um, access to social capital and information, um, access to leadership within the organization and room to grow and room to fail, right? Um, and those often are the challenges that prevent us from being able to, uh, promote and advance and keep, um, underrepresented populations at the law firm, um, at any law firm. And I think one of the things that this pandemic has done, to your point, it has made those sort of, uh, uh, informal connections that happen in the office harder. But at the same time, we've had the ability to be able to break down barriers that existed across the firm because, uh, there's no longer an excuse about, you know, that person doesn't work in my office or that person I've never met before. Um, we can create those connections in a much more organic way, um, and we can connect the dots between people in opportunities in, in an entirely new way because of the format in which we're now working. So I think that, you know, there is a, a bright side of this. Again, we don't know what's gonna happen when, and what work is gonna look like, um, after the pandemic, how that's gonna function at law firms is a, so I think an open question. Um, but there, this, this opportu, this is presented an opportunity for us to be able to connect the bathroom entirely new ways.
Speaker 2:Jeff, can I just jump in here and say a word about women in the, in the legal profession?
Speaker 1:Absolutely, of course.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I am, you know, completely in agreement about, um, the efforts that firms are un undergoing right now that have shifted since the summer. And, um, I think one, one of you, and I've forgotten who talked about the sense of urgency that firms are now feeling, and I just wanted to sound the alarm bell for working mom lawyers right now and working moms in general. Um, the data from the earlier months of the pandemic showed that it was the moms who were shouldering a lot of the school related activity and, you know, sort of all that mental burden type stuff we need to hear about. And then sadly, it's playing out that it's the moms who are leaving the workforce. And there are some dire statistics about potentially 20%, 30% of working women planning to leave their job by the end of the year. And so, I mean, I've been saying throughout the pandemic, like, what are partnership numbers gonna look like at the end of this year, um, in terms of like, women being put up for partner versus men. And like, I just want to sort of say that we are in a state of massive crisis right now when it comes to, um, parents who are working specifically women who are working, and like even more pain, I think being felt by black women who are working. Um, I mean, use of voice, talking a little bit about the, uh, disparate health data, for example. Um, black women are three to four times more likely to die in pregnancy related and childbirth related incidents, accounting even for, um, you know, variations in where they live and education and all of that. And so I think we just need to like, have a super sharp focus right now on making sure we don't lose all the gains that we've made in the legal profession in terms of promoting women. I wouldn't say that we're anywhere near where, you know, I ultimately would hope, but we have made progress and, um, I don't wanna see all of that go down the drain this year.
Speaker 1:Well, so that, that's actually a perfect segue be because, uh, I'd like to end on a, a positive note. And, and with that, you know, we've, we've referenced how there have been some changes, uh, that are positive the last several months, and the way that we as a profession are, are working, be it remote work, be it more flexibility, um, focusing, uh, again and, and hopefully permanently on diversity and inclusion. I, I'd love for each of you to get out your time machine, uh, whichever time machine is your preference, be it DeLorean, et cetera, uh, jump five years forward. What, what is one change in our profession that isn't going to revert once we've moved beyond the, the pandemic? Um, and any other thoughts you have on, on what still needs to change more moving forward?
Speaker 2:I'm happy to kick it off. First of all, there is a DeLorean parked about 0.3 miles from my house that my children and I love marveling out. Um, it's been there since the beginning of the pandemic, and I suspect it's just not going there anytime soon,<laugh>. But, um, I think the but in chair mentality is hopefully one of the things that is gone permanently. And, you know, it's one of the things that often harmed, uh, working parents and, um, flexibility I think does benefit everyone. So, uh, the working from anywhere and everywhere, uh, thing is something I hope is here to stay,
Speaker 4:Travel, travel to clients is going to, is not gonna come back in the way that it has been important in large law firm practice. I mean, there will be more travel at some point, but I think clients are gonna be a lot less likely to want to pay to fly somebody across the country to take a deposition or just to have a quick client meeting.
Speaker 3:And I, I wanna harp on sort of the topic that Lori was mentioning to, um, especially when it comes to maintaining the pipeline and diverse talent in these institutions. And I think the one thing, and of course my, the DeLorean is my choice of time travel machine there, I don't think there's any other choice<laugh>, but, um, I think that, um, uh, but I think that, you know, the commitment to diversity, equity inclusion is really important because I think what we saw at the beginning of this pandemic, I think we saw the legal industry sort of subtly try to, not necessarily intentionally, but deprioritize the work around DNI because the industry was in triage mode trying to survive, and folks felt that DNI was something that could probably push to the wayside. And George Floyd in the aftermath was the universe telling us, you know, no, that's not acceptable. And I think if you look at sort of how law firms have dealt with the economic downturn now versus how they've dealt with it in 2008, 2009, it's very different, especially around diversity, equity, and inclusion. It's very, it's a lot more, folks are just a lot more aware, um, of the consequences, a lot more aware of the talent that they're trying to maintain, and to be more cognizant of the fact that they, you know, we need to be more careful around, uh, how folks are feeling and how folks are able to, you know, continue to work in this space. So I think that we're, again, looking forward several years, I believe we're at a point where, you know, this, these, this commitment around equity, inclusion, diversity is now pretty firmly embedded in the genes, um, of our industry. And I think it's up to us to continue to really maximize that as much as possible and address the concerns that Lori mentioned and address the broader concerns around maintaining, uh, maintaining and growing our levels of representation. Um, and I think that's, that's gonna be here to stay.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you all. And, and that is a wonderful positive note to, to end on. Uh, Laurie Usif. Steve, thank you so much for your insights for joining today. Uh, thank you to the American Health Lawyers Association for allowing us to put on this, this podcast, uh, that I hope was, uh, helpful to everyone listening. And, uh, please do check out the payers plans and managed care, uh, webpage for upcoming, uh, events and content that we're putting out. And stay well. Bye-bye.