AHLA's Speaking of Health Law

Conversations with AHLA Leaders: Carol Carden, Managing Principal of Valuation Services, PYA

April 15, 2022 AHLA Podcasts
AHLA's Speaking of Health Law
Conversations with AHLA Leaders: Carol Carden, Managing Principal of Valuation Services, PYA
Show Notes Transcript

This special series highlights AHLA leaders who discuss key moments in their careers, current and future trends in health law, and AHLA’s role in their professional development. In this episode, Chip Hutzler, Director, Horne LLP, speaks with Carol Carden, Managing Principal of Valuation Services, PYA. Carol is a member of AHLA’s Board of Directors. 

Carol talks about what led her to health care consulting, why health care valuations appeal to her and the challenges involved, how to start building a professional network early in one’s career, why AHLA will always play an important role in health law education, and what her plaque will say when she is inducted into the “Health Law Rock Star Hall of Fame.”

Sponsored by HORNE.

To learn more about AHLA and the educational resources available to the health law community, visit americanhealthlaw.org.

Speaker 1:

In this special series, ALA leaders discuss key moments in their careers, current and future trends and health law, and Ally's role in their professional development support for ALA. And this series is provided by horn, which provides proactive guidance and strategies to enhance efficiency, improve patient experience, increase market share, and position you for greater success. Horn healthcare serves over 600 clients across 30 for more information, visit horn L p.com.

Speaker 2:

So I wanna welcome everyone today. This is chip Husler. And with me, my guest is Carol card from pya. Carol is one of my friendliest competitors, someone I love talking to and have known a long time. We see each other regularly. And it's great to have you, Carol. Thanks for joining us.

Speaker 3:

Thrilled to be here. Thanks for asking chip.

Speaker 2:

And so Carol, you know, most of the time I will ask the lawyers, you know, kind of how they got in the law, but let me ask you, how did you get into doing what you do, which is very similar to what I do

Speaker 3:

Well, I'd, I'd love to say that I had this well, you know, charted course that it landed me as a healthcare consultant, but that, that nothing could really be further from the truth. So I have an accounting background and I took a very traditional, uh, path as a young accountant and worked for one of the big national firms in auditing for a few years when I left there, coincidentally, I ended up going to a host. So I hadn't really worked on hospitals or healthcare entities as an auditor, but I ended up at a hospital in accounting and kind of caught the bug for the love of the healthcare industry. Um, after working in the accounting area for a little bit, I went up and did, um, what they called decision support, which was the budget, the cost report. And that's where I really kinda learned how the healthcare industry works. And like I said, that's where I really kind of caught the bug and fell in love with the industry. So when I left there, I went to an insurance company, a managed care company. And then from there joined pya, um, well over 26 years ago, which is crazy to think, but because I had hospital background and managed care background, I did a lot of different things for the firm before I ever started doing evaluation, which is where I spend my time now. So probably about 2004 or five, I started, uh, going through the process of getting credentials to do evaluation, mainly because as you well know, it's a fairly young industry and the firm was trying to recruit someone with credentials and it was just hard to find the right fit. So some of the partners at the time, cause I wasn't a partner approached me. And so would you be willing to do this to basically, you know, build versus buy? We decided to build. And so I started that process and did only business valuation for the first few years. It wasn't until about 2008 that I did my first comp valuation and really kind of found my passion. I, I still do business valuation, but comp valuation is kind of where my heart is. I really love that part of our practice.

Speaker 2:

That's great. Uh, was there anyone inspired you along the way?

Speaker 3:

You know, it's interesting when I was very young in valuation, uh, I, we were part of an organization. Our firm was, and through that I met mark Dietrich. And at the time, as you probably know, you know, mark literally wrote the book that we were all using, been doing physician practice evaluation. So, um, I met him and he gave me an opportunity to write an article with him, which I felt very ill prepared to do at that point.<laugh> but agreed anyway, like any good consultant. Sure. I'll be happy to. And, and he kinda helped credentialize me if you will, from that, I was able to get like other writing opportunities. Other speaking, I've spoken with him a number of times at different conferences. And, and so he was definitely someone that played a, a important role early on. And one of my philosophies, uh, which he got handed down from Jim Brisby, I don't know if he knew Jim or not. He was very prominent in the ASA world, not so much in the, a CPA world, but he had said to mark, just pay it forward, cuz he had helped mark with something. And so you find the next person who's gonna be behind you and you help them up. And so that's what mark was doing when he gave me that opportunity. So that's become definitely part of my philosophy too, is to look for that next young person. Who's not quite there yet, but has potential and give him a hand up and give him an opportunity.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. And for the health lawyers who don't know, mark is certainly a legend in the world evaluation of these days. He's probably closer retired, but he's um, doing it a long time.

Speaker 3:

He did officially retire, I believe at the end of 21. So

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So he's certainly someone that many of us know. Well, um, so it sounds like there was kind of a key moment there along the way, somewhere, maybe either in 2004 or in 2008, when you kind of realized, um, that this marriage of what you do with health law was kind of the right thing for you. You wanna talk about kind of what was there one moment when you just kind of light bulb went off and said, yeah. And I found what I'm doing. This

Speaker 3:

Is, yeah, it's interesting when I did my very first comp evaluation and like I said, you know, I started off doing only business evaluation and I still do a fair amount of business evaluation. But when I did my first comp valuation, what really appealed to me about it. And, and it's kind of interesting because I, I stumbled into that when I, of my colleagues who would've normally been running, that project was wrapped up in another huge project. So we couldn't do both huge projects at the same time. So I kind of stumbled into it, but what really appealed to me about it. And I know you'll know this from doing it is the consultative nature of it. It's very problem solving oriented. So I've always been interested in healthcare. I was actually a nursing major when I started college. So I've always had an interest in just healthcare and health in general. And so when I was able to take the, the problem solving aspects with is really appealing to me as a person and combine it with the healthcare field that really kind of clicked for me is like, this is really fun. And it's, you know, as you know, when you do comp evaluation, it's much more consultative forward looking, whereas business, even though business evaluation is forward looking, it still has a little more of a technical aspect to it. They kinda know what they're gonna do. They're trying to figure out out what price they're gonna do it. Whereas when you work in comp valuation, there still can be a lot of unknowns about how it's going to be done. And I, that I really enjoy that part of it.

Speaker 2:

That's great. What, what are some of the challenges you've faced along the way that you've had to overcome doing?

Speaker 3:

Yeah. And the business valuation field. Interestingly, when the firm asked me to pursue that credential, they said, you know, you have an accounting background. We think it would be a good fit for you. Then I went to my first training course and realized it has absolutely nothing to do with accounting. So<laugh>, that was a big challenge

Speaker 2:

To read a financial statement, but that's about it.

Speaker 3:

That's about it, very finance. So I was like, oh my, what have I gotten myself into? So that was definitely a challenge just to try to grasp all the finance concepts that, that you need in order to do, um, business valuation. That that's been one of the bigger ones, the comp valuation challenges were more just getting an understanding of and what they mean and how to appropriately use them and not overly rely upon them. And all the things that we, you know, hear people talk about in, um, conferences about, you know, over reliance on benchmark data and making sure that your analysis is not too mechanical. So there were some things like that that were learning curves, for sure. Probably not as big on the comp valuation side as they were on the business valuation side for me personally, at least.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. That, that makes sense. So as a leader, you know, what have you learned that you would like to pass on to other sort of would be leaders in the future if you were sort of in that mentor role of that mark played for you, what would you impart on sort of the next person to come along that, that you think has the potential or wants to be a leader?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, what I encourage younger people to do is start building their network way before they think they should start building their network. Cause I was kind of a little bit late to the game. By the time I got into this part of the field where I've ended up landing and planning to finish out my career, I was starting to build my network, you know, at probably late thirties, early forties. So I tell our young people that are in their twenties now, like, go ahead and meet those other people that are in their twenties. Now, even if they're not decision makers right now, there'll be decision makers down the road. And there are, you know, paths for you to do that. You don't have to be going to conferences and networking with people our age. You can be finding those places where people you, your age already are, it's more comfortable. And as you grow in your career, they grow in their career. And so by the time you get to the point where you're leading the projects, you've got some contacts and network already developed that will also be in decision making roles.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. That's a, a great point. Um, I think perfect. We said, I couldn't say that any better. Where do you SEEA and health law and, and the industries like ours that are related to health law going in the future, do you have any future outlook of where, where health law is going and HOA what their role in that will be?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I think, um, think unless the government significantly changes darker anti kickback, there will always be a sound role for people in the health law community, whether that be attorneys or consultants or compliance officers. And I think a L a with its mission being a provider of education will always have a significant role to play. You know, one of the things that we've seen you, you and I, as long as we've been in this industry is the government has a tendency to periodically just toss everything up in the air and see where it lands. And so, as someone who works in this industry, while that can be frustrating at times, it's also gives us additional routes. If you will, you know, additional areas where we need to educate the industry and, and we as professionals have a role in that, but certainly ALA is a provider of health law content has a role in that. So I don't expect the government to leave our industry sitting still for too long of the time where everyone kind of figures out what the rules are, cuz they certainly haven't shown any<laugh> propensity to leave us alone, um, for too long, uh, historically. So I think as long as the government plays as larger role in healthcare, as it does, which will be the case, as long as Medicare Medicaid around, um, they will continue to do things that disrupt the industry, which will cause me for, uh, professionals that work in this industry as well as providers of education, like a H L a to, um, to, um, be providing content.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. I think that's absolutely right. I'm not too worried. We're gonna have a lot to do<laugh> for sure. No, that said, you know, you've, you're one of the newer members on the, what do you still wanna accomplish in your time serving at HLA? Uh, you know, um, you've been with Py a long, long time obviously, and, uh, won't be there forever, but you still have some time ahead of you. You're young enough that, um, you may have a few things still on your list to check off what well

Speaker 3:

Yeah. What I'd like to accomplish and what I feel like part of my role. I mean, obviously being the first, I say non-attorney, but I've been corrected by leadership, but no, one's a non that's not an inclusive term. So as just a helpful professional, not an attorney. Um, I think one of the things that I can do is help the association in that desired expansion. So as you know, you know, the, we changed our name a few years ago to try to make it not just, I mean, it already was not just an attorney or association. There were already people like guests that were members, but to further emphasize that it's a broader, um, um, membership base. I think that's one area that I can help with. I, I spent about nine years in volunteer leadership positions with the a S CPA. So I've been kind of close to a member organization to see how some other people do it. And, um, I think that's one of the roles I can play is to help the association reach some of those goals about broadening the membership base to be, um, where we have a bigger, um, contingent of compliance officers and consultants and others that just work in the industry, but aren't necessarily practicing law.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. I think, I think that's a great outlook and hopefully, um, I think just right, so one of the fun things about doing what you do and I do is we get to visit a lot of fun places along the way of HLA. The last couple years, we really haven't had as much chance to do that. So, um, let's dream for a little bit. What's your favorite place to go? When, when we do get back to get going around the country, trying different places, um, what, what do you, where am I gonna find Carol? When somebody says she went to my favorite place,

Speaker 3:

I'm so happy that we're getting back to in person conferences, words cannot describe. And I know you and I were talking about that new Orleans last week. So anywhere that we go, I will be thrilled to be<laugh> I guess, uh, one of my favorite places is San Diego. I just think it's a beautiful city and it has absolutely perfect, uh, weather, but I will, uh, being someone who's a big fan of pizza will be looking very forward to the annual meeting in house council, meeting in Chicago this summer. And wouldn't miss it for the world. I'm already like ploting out pizza places to hit when we get there. But its funny for people that do what we do. I realized after being in new Orleans last week, I'm outta conference shape. So I'm gonna have to train before the annual<laugh> cause annual meeting is a marathon, not a sprint

Speaker 2:

<laugh> that is the truth. Uh, I I'm I'm like you I'm a little bit outta shape for that goes to one of my favorite places too. Uh it's um, if I could convince my family to move to California, I would already be there. But um, also I live as, as far away as possible.

Speaker 3:

I think Boston's a charming, a charming city as well and kind of manageable, you know, not overwhelming as some of the big cities can be.

Speaker 2:

It's great. And we only go there typically in the summer when it's beautiful up there. Um, you know, I, I don't know that I've ever been to Boston in the winter. Um, but

Speaker 3:

I don't know that I have either nice.

Speaker 2:

It, it it's a nice place in the summer, so it's always fun. So, um, when they induct you into the health lawyer, rockstar or health law rockstar hall of fame, what will your plaque on the wall say?

Speaker 3:

Oh my, uh, hopefully it'll say something at, uh, this is kind of top of mind because I'm in a, a program right now called leadership Knoxville and we had to pick a ribbon mm-hmm<affirmative> for your name tag at like the very first meeting and mine says plays well with others. So hopefully mine will have something to do with being a helpful person and a good connector. That's one of the things I really enjoy doing is even if it's something that our firm can't help with, I like being able to connect people with other people who can't help them, just that really appeals to the problem solving part of my personality.

Speaker 2:

I would say that's a fantastic ribbon for you, how they fit all that on one ribbon, but that is perfect. Um, and will end with one that a couple other people have told me, they want me to ask, what is this, uh, what is your walk-in music and what is the story for your walk-in music? What if, if you had walk-in music like a baseball player, what song would that be and why?

Speaker 3:

So I would probably say this has nothing to do with the lyrics or anything, but I would probably say uptown funk only because it makes me happy every time I hear it, like, I'll hear it when I'm working out or something. And it just like, I find myself picking up the pace because

Speaker 2:

Mars and

Speaker 3:

Yeah, it's a fun song with a great, or you know, like a great band with all the, uh, the brass and everything. And it just makes me happy.

Speaker 2:

Well, if we could get the rights to it, I'd be playing it right now. That's a great

Speaker 3:

As the closing podcast,

Speaker 2:

Happy music, but uh, well, it was great to have the opportunity to chat with you really enjoyed this. And um, thank you for being my guest and for answering. So truthfully you gave some great insight to people. I think really, uh, great to have somebody that maybe brings that other perspective to these podcasts too. It really glad you could join us. Thanks so much.

Speaker 3:

I appreciate the opportunity. It was good chatting with you again.

Speaker 1:

Thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to a L a speaking of health law, wherever you get your podcasts to learn more about a a and the edge of vocational resources available to the health law community, visit American health law.org.