In honor of National Hispanic Heritage Month, AHLA has partnered with the Hispanic National Bar Association to present this three-part series highlighting the career journeys of Latino/Latina health law leaders. In the second episode, Gelvina Rodriguez Stevenson, Vice President, General Counsel, The Wistar Institute, and Esteban Rodriguez, Counsel, O’Melveny & Myers LLP, speak with Jorge Lopez, Executive Vice President & General Counsel, Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center. Prior to that role, Jorge was head of Akin Gump Strauss Hauer & Field’s health care and life sciences practice and served as a legal advisor to Bill Clinton’s presidential campaign from 1991-1992.
To learn more about AHLA and the educational resources available to the health law community, visit americanhealthlaw.org.
In honor of National Hispanic Heritage Month, AHLA has partnered with the Hispanic National Bar Association to present this three-part series highlighting the career journeys of Latino/Latina health law leaders. In the second episode, Gelvina Rodriguez Stevenson, Vice President, General Counsel, The Wistar Institute, and Esteban Rodriguez, Counsel, O’Melveny & Myers LLP, speak with Jorge Lopez, Executive Vice President & General Counsel, Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center. Prior to that role, Jorge was head of Akin Gump Strauss Hauer & Field’s health care and life sciences practice and served as a legal advisor to Bill Clinton’s presidential campaign from 1991-1992.
To learn more about AHLA and the educational resources available to the health law community, visit americanhealthlaw.org.
This episode of ala Speaking of Health Law is brought to you by HLA members and donors like you. For more information, visit American health law.org.
Speaker 2:Welcome everyone. Bis. Thank you for joining us. This podcast is part of the Latino Latina Health Law Leaders podcast series presented by the American Health Law Association and the Hispanic National Bar Association in recognition of Hispanic Heritage Month. My name is Steon Rodriguez. I'm one of your co-host. I'm a council with O Albany and Myers in its Los Angeles office, where my practice focuses on litigation in the firm's product liability, mass torts, and life sciences industry groups. I'm also a member of both the ALA and the H B A. My co-host Galina Stevenson and I are incredibly excited to facilitate this podcast series. Our aim in this podcast is to celebrate Latino and Latina leaders in the health and life sciences legal field. Over the course of the series, we'll speak with Latina and Latino attorneys working on cutting edge issues in the health and life sciences space. People who are trailblazers, not only in this space for the Hispanic community, but the legal profession as a whole. We'll hear about their backgrounds and professional journeys, their amazing work, their career highlights and challenges, and their advice for other professionals navigating this space. With that said, Vena, I'll turn it over to you to introduce yourself and today's guest.
Speaker 3:Okay, great. Thank you Stevan. And thank you for introducing the Hispanic Heritage Month podcast series. Uh, as, as you mentioned, my name is Galvin Stevenson. I serve on the board of directors of the American Health Law Association, and as co-chair of the Hispanic National Bar Association's Health and Life Sciences section, I'm also the General Council of the WestStar Institute, a National Cancer and Biomedical Research Institute. And as Theban, I am just as excited as you are to get started. So let's jump right in with our guest, Jge Lopez. Jorge, it is so great to have you on this podcast, and we really appreciate your taking the time to be with us today. I will start by telling our listeners a bit about you, and then we'll spend the first part of the podcast hearing from you about your background, the second part of the podcast, focusing on your work and a substantive topic in healthcare. And then we'll wrap up by providing our listeners with some key takeaways. So by way of intro, Jge is the Executive Vice President and General Counsel of Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center in New York City. Prior to that role was a partner with Aching Gum Struse, Howard and Feld, and was head of the firm's healthcare and life sciences practice. Also served as a legal advisor to Bill Clinton's presidential campaign from 1991 to 92, where he provided advice to the campaign on delegate selection, ballot access, the electoral college, and other related matters. And we know Jorge, as an accomplished leader, not only in cutting edge health law matters, but as someone who also has had a real impact on advancing diversity, equity, and inclusion in the legal field and in the health law bar in particular. So, Jge, again, we are so excited to have you with us today for this conversation.
Speaker 4:Thank you. I'm delighted to be with you.
Speaker 3:Great. Okay. So our first question, Jorge, we were hoping we could go, you know, way to the beginning, to your formative years, the what led you to wanna become a lawyer and ultimately a healthcare lawyer. And I know that you were born in Cuba and came to the US with your family at the age of three. So can you tell us a bit about your parents, their journey, their experience moving here, and how that might have impacted the choices you made in your career?
Speaker 4:Yeah, sure. Um, so yeah, going all the way back to the beginning, um, as you said, I I was born in Havana and my parents, my family, my entire family left Cuba in 1961 when I was three. And it was a, it, it really is a classic Cuban American story. There was an infa infamous day in Cuban history around that time when all private property was nationalized. And so my family, like, like millions of other Cubans, uh, all of a sudden overnight had nothing. And as a result of that, many of us left in, in, in search of a better life. And that's what my family did. Um, we took a Pan American flight<laugh>, and, and I think it was in January, 1961 to Miami, uh, literally with only the clothes on our backs, we, uh, were not able to, to take anything out. I think at that time, um, it was impossible to really take anything with you. You had to say you were going on vacation so you could take what you would take if you were going on vacation, but, but nothing more. And we were lucky because not too long after that, um, it wasn't, it, it wasn't possible for people to leave at all for a period of time. And you probably all know about the, the infamous Peter Pan flights were, were, uh, families would send their children ahead of them to the United States. And in many cases they never, they never were able to see them again. But we were fortunate in that we all were able to leave. Um, nobody was conversing in English. We were, we were not a bilingual family by any stretch. We lived in Miami for a year, and then we moved up to the DC area, which is where I, where I grew up. Uh, and I learned my English in kindergarten. I, I didn't know a word of it, uh, where that, um, so you asked how, how did I become an how, how did I get interested in being a lawyer? Well, I, I don't know,<laugh> really ver uh, exactly, because there were no lawyers in my family. My father was an accountant. Um, and, uh, my, I had an uncle who's an economist, but no, but no, but no lawyers. And I, I think, you know, kind of thinking back on it actually, this, this exercise made me think about that in a way I hadn't before. I think it was because, um, in, in Cuban families around that time, um, current events were very important because Cubans thought that they were gonna go back to Cuba,<laugh>, right? Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, that this was only a temporary thing. They were gonna go back to Cuba. Castro was gonna be overthrown, and things were gonna be like they were. And so as a result of that, we always were talking about what was in the news, Like what, what's happening, you know, what, what are, what, what's going on politically, et cetera. And so I developed a really strong interest in current events. And I think that's kind of where it started. Uh, when I was in college, uh, I thought I was gonna be a journalist. I, I, I enjoyed writing. And then I remember I took a, a con law class in, in, in college. And that got me very interested in, in, uh, in going to law school. And so that's, that's what I did.
Speaker 3:Interesting. And when you moved to, uh, when your family moved to Miami, did they have other family there? Was there a community that they connected with there?
Speaker 4:Well, our immediate family, um, all left at the same time. Well, actually, not exactly at the same time. My grandparents came a little later and we had aunts and uncles that that came around, around that time. Uh, but there wasn't like, we, we didn't have family that was in the US that was kind of waiting for us. And cuz support us when we were there. We really were there just ourselves and just had to make due with whatever, whatever we, you know, however we could, we could survive. My father, I think, had various points was, uh, a milkman, a used car salesman, and probably had a lot, a number of other SUNY jobs. Um, and he, like I said before, he was an accountant, and so he, uh, he ultimately kind of settled into the hospitality industry and, and that was his career. He, he wound up working for high ed and actually got to a, a pretty prominent position in, in the company, kind of in on the financial side of the house with the hospitality industry.
Speaker 3:Interesting. And then you, um, and I, I appreciate your story that, you know, you learned English in kindergarten, that's just so reflective and I think of so many, um, other experiences in our community too. So you get, get to kindergarten only speak Spanish, learn English, Um, and then did your parents also, they, did they learn English at some point?
Speaker 4:Uh, well, my, yes, they did. Although to this day, my, my mom is still alive and she speaks heavily, heavily accented English,<laugh> mm-hmm.<affirmative>, um, uh, my, my grandparents, uh, had the toughest go of it. Um, and they, they, they, they learned it and everybody became a citizen at, at, at, at one point, at some point along the line. Right. Which I think we're, we're all very proud of. Um, and, um, yeah, we, we learned it, but it was not easy. It was, it was, it was, uh, it was difficult, especially for my grandparents and even for my parents to, to really pick up a new language in their, I guess they were in their, in their thirties when, when they came over
Speaker 3:Here mm-hmm.<affirmative>. Yeah. Yep. And then you, you, you go to the school here or college, and where did the interest in law arise?
Speaker 4:Yeah, like I said, I think, I think it, it came from, um, an interest in current events, uh, which kind of translated into an interest in public policy, which kind of translated into an interest in the, in, in the legal field as a way, uh, as a place where I could, um, explore those interests. And, you know, the, what I said before about, um, uh, enjoying writing was important, uh, for whatever reason, even though, again, English was not my first language. Um, I, I took to writing pretty well early on, and I, I, I really enjoyed that, that process of, you know, writing something compelling. And, um, and so that was something that I first thought I wanted to, um, you know, that, that I, I, I could, I could explore being a journalist and then decided that, well, the law is a profession, we're being a good writer is also really important. Right? Um, right. And, and so that, that's kind of how that evolved.
Speaker 3:Got it. And you started, um, tell us about, did, did you go into law knowing you wanted to focus in health law? Or did that just sort of happen organically?
Speaker 4:Yeah. What happened very strangely, um, I, um, again, we had no doctors in my family, so I had really no, no exposure to to, to the medical field at all. Um, and when I was at, when I was in law school at Harvard, um, I don't think there were any health law classes or if there were, it was only one class, which I did not take<laugh>. Um, and I was a, I was a summer associate at, uh, what was then known as ha and Do now, now Wilmer Hale. Um, and we were trying to figure out whether, um, we were, uh, we were gonna stay in Boston. My wife's family is from Boston, were moved back to dc Ultimately, we decided to move back to DC And then, um, and then I started interviewing with her firms, um, in, in my third year, because Helenor did not have a, did not have a very big Washington office. I think they only had 10 lawyers. So, um, I, I interviewed with a bunch of firms. Ultimately, I accepted an offer at a and Gum. And the reason I, I did that was largely, again, this interest in politics and public policy at the time. And still today, a and Gump is like Washington's powerhouse law and lobbying firm, right? So Bob Strausberg and Jordan, people who were very active, uh, in the political realm. And so that was really the main reason I think that I, that I went to Akin. And, um, I did not go there with any knowledge that they even had a healthcare practice<laugh>. Um, and I've told the story many times. I was in the bathroom, my first day of work at Akin, I run into this guy and we intro, he introduces himself and I introduce myself. I'm a first year, my first day on the job, he says, Great, you're gonna work for me. So he was the then head of the, um, at the a can healthcare practice, which exa com was comprised at the time of exactly two people. And so I was the, I was the third person, uh, in the practice and, you know, flash forward, you know, 30 years. And I was, that was the head of the practice when I left AEN to come Thomas K. Wow.
Speaker 3:Yeah. It's just amazing. See how the, the field of health laws just grown in the past, you know, couple of decades. And I think that repre that's a good example of that.
Speaker 4:Yeah. And, and I guess one, but, but to your point about like, okay, that's how I get into it, but why did I, why did I stay in it, right? Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. And so I think, again, it ties back to my interest in and public policy, because healthcare is the one area of law where there's always something going on politically, right? And in the, in the realm of public policy, and it's fluid and changing and, and always, always in the news. And I had the good fortune in my time at ACA that almost, almost every year there was something hot happening on the hill, um, relative to healthcare, You know, early on after I worked on the Clinton campaign, um, I, I worked on actually for MSK and, and other, and the other dedicated cancer centers and all of the issues, uh, involving Clinton care. And then it seemed like every year after that, there was something going on in healthcare that was prominent, and that became an important part of my practice, not only, uh, being a healthcare lawyer, but also, uh, a healthcare advocate and lobbyist on behalf of clients. And those clients included, again, MSK and, and, and other dedicated cancer centers like MD Anderson and Dana Farber.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So, so lemme shift now to, uh, the, the work that, that you've been doing, uh, in, in, in the healthcare space, uh, to increase diversity, equity, and inclusion. And, um, so just, you know, we know that you've done a lot of work and, and, uh, if you can tell us just the listeners about those efforts, um, you know, what are the steps that you've taken? What do you think has worked and not worked? What lessons have you learned, um, as particularly lessons that other lawyers in healthcare might consider adopting as they, you know, push, push diversity forward in their own institutions?
Speaker 4:Sure. Yeah. Um, and, you know, this is something that in my role at, at MSK has been hugely important, uh, for me. Um, and where I think we've had some demonstrated success. So I would say two things. One is that, um, um, we have learned that it's very important to have a structure to around which to organize your diversity efforts. And all, all the goodwill in the world is great, but without having some proma programmatic aspect of it, a structure, um, it makes it harder. And so the catalyst for us for, for that was the George Floyd murder. And that was the catalyst, obviously for, for millions of people and, and, and scores of people across our institution. But for our legal team, um, it really allowed us, it was a catalyst for us to organize our efforts in a very productive way. So we did it in a couple ways. One is we established this diversity committee, and it was amazing. I think<laugh>, I think like more than half our legal department joined this diversity committee when we set it up. And they came up with a plan of various initiatives that we, um, undertook, uh, to, to promote diversity. And so, in parallel with that, and, and really as part of that effort, we, um, we joined the diversity labs, uh, mass field rule effort. And probably some of your listeners know what that is, but if you don't, let me quickly explain it. So there's something in, in the NFL called the Rooney Rule, which is essentially, um, a requirement that if you, um, if, if you recruit a coach, uh, for a football team, you have to, you have to include a certain number of diverse candidates in that search right? Before you can actually hire someone. So it's analogous to that. And the idea is, uh, not just in terms of recruiting, but but across a whole host of metrics that, that you do things consistent with the goal of increasing diversity. So what does it mean as a practical matter? Well, when you recruit new lawyers, when you recruit, uh, summer interns, um, that you consider a certain number of diverse candidates when you, when you offer up promotional opportunities to your team, that you do the same thing in your interactions with your law firms, that you impress upon those law firms, that is important for us, for them to present a diverse team to us to do, to do our work and, and other similar things. So that, that was very helpful. And, um, we haven't got an official, uh, word about this yet, but I think we are going to be Nashville Rule Certified sometime, I think in the next couple of weeks. And we're very excited about that. I think we would be one of only very few hospitals that, that have that, that distinction. This is something that, that, um, first started with law firms, so law firms, um, can get this certification, and then it expanded in-house legal department, and it's quite, quite a good program. It's made a real difference, I think, in the way that we, that we've approached things and it's made, um, it's made it possible. I think for have it is made it possible for us to have these successes. I'm not sure that we would've accomplished them, Dave, if we didn't have that, that structure that helped us organize our efforts. So that's one thing. Um, you know, the second thing I I'd say is that, um, just as a, as a more individual matter, that, that you should look for opportunities to mentor people. And that's kind, kind of obvious. Um, and, and, and it's a little weird come from me because I did not have a great mentor, uh, in my, in my time at aen. You know, I, I, I felt I got support from my peers and, you know, after I became a partner for my other partners. But I, I never really felt that I had a great mentor, but I felt that I benefited hugely from the people that I mentored. I learned so much from them. I became a better lawyer and a better manager because of my interactions with them, with, with me being the mentor and them being the mentees. But, but also it was a two way street. I was, I was benefiting as much from that relationship as they were benefiting from it. And so I've always enjoyed that role, you know, and I, I think it's something that I, that I think I do pretty well. And, and after coming to msk, I've also, I, I've also been lucky enough to, to do that. And one of the things about mentorship that I think are often lost is that it doesn't have to be formal. It can be very informal, and it can be with people that you interact with in all different parts of your life. There is this, uh, I I, um, I was asked to speak at, at Harvard at, at a professional responsibility class about a topic. And there was a student, uh, in the class who reached out to me afterward and just wanted to talk about her career in health law. And so I've developed a relationship with her, and I've talked to her every few months about how she's doing. She works for a law firm here, here in New York. And so, and that I've had, I've done the same thing with some of our summer interns. So it doesn't have to be formal, It can be very informal. And it's, it's rewarding, certainly for me. And I think generally it's a rewarding thing to, to mentor someone. And I think it's usually important for the people being mentored, you know, especially if they, if they are, if they are diverse.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I really appreciate that point. And I, you know, agree that mentoring can be organic, um, sort of relationships that develop, but I also just need to put in a plug that in addition to those that develop sort of naturally, that there's all these really great formal mentoring programs. HLA has one, the Hispanic National Bar Association has one where you can go very simple, go online, put in your, your information, your practice area, what type of mentor mentee you're looking for, and then those connections are made, you know, and sometimes, you know, it doesn't go anywhere, but sometimes there's a real connection there. And those people become lifelong mentors and mentees. So I think finding mentors in all those
Speaker 4:Avenues is great. And, and, and I think the key thing is that, that you want to be mentored by someone who's really going to not view you as means to an end. In other words, if you're a partner in a law firm, an associate is someone that can help that partner achieve success, right? You want the, the mentor to be really focused on that mentee success, right? And even if that, if that means that that person may move on and do something else, you know, outside of your ort and not not be in a position to help you at all. Um, there's a great line from Ted Lasso, uh, something along the lines of a, a good mentor or someone who thinks you're gonna leave and a great mentor is someone who knows you're gonna leave, right? So it's really about, uh, someone who's really focused on the mentees development and, and career.
Speaker 2:Jorge, outside of the, uh, great d e and I work that you do at, uh, msk, can you tell us a little bit about how your, your team is structured, what kind of issues you, y'all focus on on a day to day basis?
Speaker 4:Yeah, of course. Um, so I, I should start by saying that I just had this amazing team. I had some great lawyers I inherited when I came here, and I've been, I've been lucky enough to be able to recruit some, some great lawyers. Um, and, and one of the cool things about being a general counsel as opposed to being a, a partner in the law firm is that you really get to work in areas of law that you barely knew existed.<laugh> when you, when, when I, when I was a partner at Akin, for example. Um, because it's so diverse, you know, and, and you get hit with all kinds of different issues, and in many cases, you just have to do the best you can with them because you don't have any previous experience with them. But not surprisingly, we're, we're kind of set up like a law firm. So we have practice areas, and every practice area has, has, uh, a lawyer who, who heads up that area. So we have a transactional practice area. We have a, a litigation practice area, regulatory practice area, intellectual property practice area. I also, uh, am responsible for government relations at msk. And so we have two great lobbyists, one on the federal side, one, one on the state side, that, that, that, that report to me. Um, and that works very well, I think, um, in terms of management, because I have regular check-ins with all of those areas, and it really allows me to, um, make decisions as to how I should spend my time. That's one of the most challenging things for general counsel to, to figure out, like, where should you be investing your time and having an organiz, the, having the, the organization that we have with the ability to, uh, delegate to certain people so that they can manage certain areas, uh, and then report to me, it gives, gives me a good line of sight into what everybody is doing, and it allows me to prioritize, um, the areas where I think my involvement would be most beneficial.
Speaker 2:Definitely. Sounds like you have your hand in, in just about everything that walks in into the door on the legal side. Um, No,
Speaker 4:No, no question about that.
Speaker 2:How did you prepare for that? I mean, is that something that you went into the job knowing that something was like a kind of cut you off guard? Uh, I just wondering how, how you navigated that challenge. No,
Speaker 4:I, I certainly knew it. Um, and I feel like, um, you know, part of the job is really figuring out what you don't know, right? And, and, and relying on people who are knowledgeable and deferring to their expertise when, when necessary. But hopefully over the course of my career, I've developed judgment. Um, sometimes I call it a spy sense<laugh> as to, even if you don't know the area of law, well, if, if you know enough about kind of the broad parameters of the law so that you can make judgements even in areas where you don't have specific granular expertise, um, in, in the particular, in the particular, you know, area of law. So, so it's, it's a learning process for sure. No question about it. And I've learned so much, you know, another, like one, one example of something I didn't know very much about was, uh, professional liability law, medical malpractice, right? Like, big law firms don't have that as an expertise. So that, that's a whole new world, you know? It's, it's not, it's, it's, it's, um, you know, it's very medically oriented, so you have to become familiar with some of the medical concepts. And the, the bar in that area is very different. You know, it's not big law firms, it's, it's, uh, smaller firms, um, that have a completely different business model and different, uh, different kinds of expertise. So that, that would, that, that was a learning process for me, Uh, but an important one because that, that obviously is something that we deal with on a, on a regular basis.
Speaker 2:Got it. So a lot of our listeners are, are practitioners, uh, always to know about, um, health trends, uh, health law trends in particular, anything that you've come across recently, uh, in your role as general counsel for MSK that you think is worth keeping an eye on?
Speaker 4:Yeah, sure. So, um, um, you know, one thing that that happened very recently that, um, was something that we, that we advocated for and that we're very proud of, as I mentioned, you know, I I, I'm responsible for government relations and, um, our, our team, uh, successfully advocated, uh, along with other stakeholders, of course, uh, for a change in New York law to require all Medicaid and Affordable Care Act plans to include any willing NCI designated cancer center in their networks. Like what? And so you might ask yourself like, Why is that necessary? Why, why can't that just happen organically? And the reason is that historically, we have had a rough time getting included in Medicaid and ACA networks, and the reason for that isn't because we don't want to be in those, those, those plans. Uh, or even that, you know, you could imagine a scenario where we wouldn't wanna be in those plans because the rates are too low. That's not, it is that the plans don't want, historically have not wanted any part of us because, um, if we are in a network, then we attract all the sick cancer patients and the plans lose a lot of money. And so our solution for that, and, and so there's a term for that called adverse selection. Um, and, and so the solution for that, that, that, uh, the New York legislature agreed was, was a good solution was to make it so that every plan would have to include any willing, uh, National Cancer Institute designated cancer center in their network. And so if every plan has an NCI designated cancer center in their network, then no one plan will be disproportionately hurt because the sick patients will be spread around to all the plans. And so what that means for us, and this is the important part, is that patients that adhere to Ford could not get access to the kind of care that we provide at msk, uh, will now be able to get access to us. So we are very excited about that, and it's gonna mean that we're gonna be able to serve our entire community in ways that we have not been able to do historically.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm sure that that law has a tremendous amount of impact on, I'm sure, uh, communities who are in poverty. Um, I I imagine disproportionate impact on communities of color as well.
Speaker 4:No question.
Speaker 2:Um, anything that you've seen, uh, you hope to see change in that area?
Speaker 4:Well, uh, it's not, um, so this law, we enacted this law in New York and in California, I know that they're currently considering a law, you know, we call it a trend yet, uh, because I'm not sure that there are any other states that are actively considering that, that that kind of law. But I will say this, um, the Biden administration is very interested, of course, in, um, in cancer care for, for the obvious reasons. Um, one of their main themes, uh, is health equity. In other words, um, ensuring that the kind of care that Bill Biden got is cared that is available to everybody. And so how that will translate it to public policy, I'm not sure yet, but that is a theme that that is a priority for the administration. And I think what we were able to do to do in New York is very consistent with that.
Speaker 3:Perfect. Great. What advice would you give to early career attorneys just starting out to navigate a career in this field?
Speaker 4:Sure. Yeah. So let me, well, I'll say three things. Um, one is, um, be excellent. Um, and sometimes when, when we have, you know, in these discussions that, that, that, that, that point is lost, but, but it's kind of the table stakes, right? Uh, being a lawyer, a healthcare lawyer, or any kind of lawyer, uh, is demanding, and, and, and to, um, be successful, you really have to be excellent. Um, and again, it's, it's kind of obvious, but, but, but it, sometimes it's just not said. And I think it's important to say that. Um, the second thing is, um, what I have found is that, um, if you're in a, if you're in a leadership position, um, it is important, I think, to focus more on the success of your team than on your own individual success. And that sounds counterintuitive, like how are you gonna advance your career if you're not focused on, on yourself, right? But, um, there's a whole philosophy of, of, uh, leadership called servant leadership, which essentially maps to, um, you're not gonna be a good leader if you're totally in inwardly focused. You need to be focused on your team and, and, and ensure that your team is successful. And if you are a good leader, you will credit your team for anything that goes, that goes well. And you'll take the blame<laugh> for anything that goes, that goes poorly, right? And I think that's, those are the kinds of leaders that I think are respected. That's the kind of leader that I, that I aspire to be. And then thirdly, um, I'll say it this way, prioritize self care. And sometimes that gets translated into, you know, kind of work life balance issues in the legal field at law firms, but even in, in, you know, challenging in-house positions, there's no real balance, right? Like, like, like, like if your work is very challenging and you're gonna spend a lot of time on it. So it's not a, not necessarily a question to balance, but it's important to recognize that, um, you need to, um, you need to keep a focus on yourself and your health, both mental and physical. And it's very, very easy to lose that focus, Uh, if you get wrapped up in a, in a law firm environment or another environment where you're just working 24 7, uh, and you're, it's, it's challenging. It's enjoyable, and, and it, it can be, um, really rewarding, but you need to always focus on the fact that sometimes you can go overboard. And I think oftentimes people forget that at, at times in my career, I have forgotten that.
Speaker 3:Great. That's great advice. And I do have to ask one follow up though. And on the first piece of advice you gave when you said bx, early career attorneys to be excellent. What does that mean? What does that look like to you?
Speaker 4:It, it just, it's like, it, it's just, um, it, it's just like any craft trying to, trying to, to, to learn it as well as you can and, and to be the best you can be at whatever your, you know, your area of law is. Um, and, you know, not everyone gets the same opportunities. I think that's, that, that, that, that's a given. But, um, I, I, I think you should always strive to just be an excellent, excellent lawyer, uh, in everything that you do. Right. Great. And let me, I, I wanna say one other thing though, in connection with that, and this is something that, that, that, that I have said many times. You don't have to be excellent at, at everything<laugh>. You can be a great lawyer, but it doesn't mean that you have to be a fantastic writer. Um, you know, a, a terrific, uh, advocate in court, uh, and a great rainmaker at the same time, you know, within the realm of excellent lawyers, um, there are people who are good at some things and not that, that good at other things, right? And, and that's okay. You can be a partner at a law firm, you can be a general counselor, You can do whatever you wanna do without being like top of the class in every single aspect of your job. And that, and that's something that I can notice at Aen all the time. And I, I, I, I've said many times, we all have issues, right? We all have issues. There are there, there are things that we, that we do really well, and some things, and you know, my myself included that, that you, that we, that we don't do all that well, and that's okay,
Speaker 2:Right? Definitely. I think, uh, I think, I think being a great leader is, uh, recognizing you're not excellent in everything. So it's a great words. Um, so if, uh, our final question for you, Jorge, if you had to describe your experiences as a Latino health law attorney in three or so words, what would they be?
Speaker 4:So, I, I'll, I'll say it in Spanish. Uh, no, tell, no, no. Tell Vis. So don't, don't forget where you came from and, and your heritage and, and, and I think that means different things for different people. So for me, what that means is, you know, don't forget that we came to this country with nothing and, and be, uh, be be understanding of the situation of, of, of immigrants and others who come to this country with nothing. And then how hard that can be. Don't forget about the values, um, that were instilled in you. Um, and be grateful for them, um, and don't forget that you have the potential to accomplish. Great. Thanks.
Speaker 3:Great,
Speaker 2:Great words, Jorge. Um, on behalf of, uh, ALA and the hm, b a Jorge, again, Jovin. And I wanna thank you for taking the time to be with us today, um, for the amazing conversation we just had. Your words of wisdom, your leadership and commitment is truly inspiring to us, and I know to, uh, so many others in our community. Uh, so
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