In honor of National Hispanic Heritage Month, AHLA has partnered with the Hispanic National Bar Association to present this three-part series highlighting the career journeys of Latino/Latina health law leaders. In the third episode, Gelvina Rodriguez Stevenson, Vice President, General Counsel, The Wistar Institute, and Esteban Rodriguez, Counsel, O’Melveny & Myers LLP, speak with Lisa Pino, Former Director, Office for Civil Rights, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. Prior to that role, Lisa served as the New York State Department of Health’s Executive Deputy Commissioner, where she led New York’s operational response to the COVID-19 pandemic, and she also served as Senior Counselor at the U.S. Department of Homeland Security.
To learn more about AHLA and the educational resources available to the health law community, visit americanhealthlaw.org.
In honor of National Hispanic Heritage Month, AHLA has partnered with the Hispanic National Bar Association to present this three-part series highlighting the career journeys of Latino/Latina health law leaders. In the third episode, Gelvina Rodriguez Stevenson, Vice President, General Counsel, The Wistar Institute, and Esteban Rodriguez, Counsel, O’Melveny & Myers LLP, speak with Lisa Pino, Former Director, Office for Civil Rights, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. Prior to that role, Lisa served as the New York State Department of Health’s Executive Deputy Commissioner, where she led New York’s operational response to the COVID-19 pandemic, and she also served as Senior Counselor at the U.S. Department of Homeland Security.
To learn more about AHLA and the educational resources available to the health law community, visit americanhealthlaw.org.
This episode of ala Speaking of Health Law is brought to you by HLA members and donors like you. For more information, visit american health law.org.
Speaker 2:Welcome everyone, Bi Vidos. Thank you for joining us. This is our podcast, uh, one of the podcast, uh, sessions in our series, Latino Latina Health Law Leaders. And this is being presented by the American Health Law Association in conjunction with the Hispanic National Bar Association in recognition of Hispanic Heritage Month. My name is Galvin Stevenson. I am one of your co-hosts along with ISTE Rodriguez. Uh, I, uh, I serve on the board of directors of HLA and as co-chair of the Hispanic National Bar Association's Health and Life Sciences section. And I'm also the General Council of the WestStar Institute of Biomedical Research and National Cancer Institute. My co-host is Stephen and I are excited to facilitate this podcast series. We have a really fantastic guest for you today. Um, and before we introduce our guest, I, uh, there's some background about the podcast that we would like to relay. Our overall aim with the podcast is to celebrate Latino and Latina leaders in the health and life sciences legal field. We will speak with Latina and Latino legal professionals working on cutting edge issues in the health and life sciences space. These are people who are trailblazers in health law in the profession and in the Hispanic community. We'll hear about their backgrounds and professional journeys, their amazing work, their career highlights, and what advice they would give to other professionals navigating this space. So, Ason, with that background, I will turn it over to you to introduce yourself. And
Speaker 3:Thank you for that introduction. As you mentioned, my name is Esteban Rodriguez. I'm a council with Omel Myers and it's Los Angeles office where I practiced in their, in the firm's product liability mass towards and life sciences industry groups. I'm also like you, a member of both the ALA and the hm b a I'm just as excited as you are Galvin. So I'm going to jump right in with our guests, Lisa Pino. Lisa, it's great to connect with you. Thank you for being with us today. I want to give a little bit of a, of your background, uh, for any of our listeners who aren't familiar with it. Uh, Lisa recently served, uh, as the director of the Office for Civil Rights at the US Department of Health and Human Services, where she led teams in enforcing federal civil rights, conscience and religious freedom laws, as well as HIPAA and other privacy, security, and patient safety laws. Before her time at hhs, Lisa served as the New York State Department of Health's Executive Commissioner, where she led New York's operational response to the 19 pandemic. Lisa also served as senior counselor at the US Department of Homeland Security, where she directed the mitigation of a 2015 US data breach. That, at the time was the largest hack in federal history. And prior to dhs, Lisa held multiple roles within the US Department of Agriculture. She worked as council with the law firm of Mayor Brown, and going all the way back, started as a legal aid attorney in the Southwest, protecting the rights of migrant farm workers. Lisa, uh, what an impressive list of accomplishments. Um, I wanna start by, uh, going to more towards the beginning and asking you about the early parts of your professional journey. Um, what led you to pursue a career in law and how did you ultimately focus on health law as an area of expertise?
Speaker 4:Well, thank you so much. Um, thank you, first of all. Thank you Galena and Estevan and H n b, um, for the honor of joining this, this important dialogue and conversations. It's a thrill and an honor. Um, I've been a member of H N B A, um, for a long time and a long admirer, so thank you. Um, so how did I end up becoming a lawyer? Well, you know, I'm a first generation daughter of immigrant parents. Um, I think this is an experience that a lot of us have in common, being the first ones in our families to attend college, graduate even, you know, have the audacity. Think about law school. We serve that role. You know, I did, I know a lot of us did, um, from a young age reading the male opening Thebes and<inaudible> being the translator, the advocate, you know, dawning all these hats. Um, and I think that really instilled in me that just thought, What, what does this mean? Um, and before I dabbled in law school, you know, cuz it's expensive, it's overwhelming, it's, I intimidating. I was like, Could I really do this? I actually applied to an AmeriCorps program that was really cool that I don't think exist anymore. But at the time it was, um, a collaboration with what was called, I'm really dating myself. It's an organization called napal, the National National Association of Public Interest Slots now called Equal Justice Works. So I was like one of a handful of people that did this really full and funky, like, you know, dip in the, in the pool of what that could look like. And I worked at Legal Aid in Arizona at, uh, in AmeriCorps. And that experience, um, really gave me the confidence to apply. And then I think another, um, you know, turning point for me that made law school a reality was applying to the Cleo program. I don't know if your folks are, are familiar with that, but that's the Council of Legal Education Opportunity. It's a great organization that still exists. Um, and it serves for, you know, folks just like us, like the first ones in our families to attend law school. And it's like a pre-law summer camp that's really fun and supportive. So I think thanks to the those two programs, America Clear, that gave me the confidence to, to try this crazy thing called being. That's great.
Speaker 3:So you mentioned, uh, you know, your first generation daughter, uh, of immigrants. Can you tell us a little bit about your, your family's? Um, I'm always so fascinated to hear about families, immigration stories that, you know, when they came, where they settled, uh, what it was like growing up in a immigrant household.
Speaker 4:Yes. Each one of us ha has that story, right. Um, so my, uh, my mother's Cuban and my father's from Spain. Um, my mom immigrated in the late sixties, you know, like she was part of that wave, um, of people, uh, fling, uh, Castro and um, a, you know, political refugee, officially a refugee. Um, she first moved to Florida, like a lot of Cubans did. And then, um, she ended up in New York instead, which I'm thankful for cause I love New York very much. Um, and then my dad, interestingly left Spain, you know, he grew up in the era of Franco, of course. Um, but he actually moved to Bono to Argentina where he had family. He was trying to flee the political environment in Spain at that time. Um, but then he left because he was there in the time of Bidone, which was also politically turbulent. And, um, his family there also was a victim of violence and that gave him the confidence to come to New York. And so my parents met, you know, um, it's a very romantic story, but they met like at a dance hall in midtown Manhattan. My dad was living in the Bronx and my mom was living in Brooklyn and somehow they met in the middle. Um, and the rest is history, as they say. And I, you know, I was born and raised in Manhattan where, where they at, where they met, and phone love.
Speaker 3:That's great. Um, and reflecting back on, on your personal, you know, background, your parents and immigration story, um, would you say that that background has impacted your career trajectory at all?
Speaker 4:Oh, absolutely. Um, every fiber of my being, every day of my life, right? It's like in our dna, in our blood. Um, absolutely, you know, every, I think, you know, and I think it's not just true. Um, those of us in in the Latino, Latinx community, I think it's part of this immigrant story, right? There's so many of us, um, that share, uh, you know, the values, like the hard work, um, ethics, honesty, um, not taking things for granted. Um, I think it's instilled in all of us a sense of resilience and grit and character that I, I'm very proud of. Um, and, you know, just like it shapes and carries your perspective and worldview, I think forever, in a good way, in the best way possible.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. Can agree with that more. So, uh, you talked, uh, a little while ago about how you became interested in the law. Can you tell us a little bit about how you ultimately focus on health law, uh, as an area of expertise?
Speaker 4:Yeah, and you know, it wasn't, um, linear as Devon. So I actually started off, uh, focusing on immigration. Um, you know, especially cuz I, I was lucky enough to go to law school in Arizona. Um, so like I started in my legal career, uh, you know, working at Legal Aid and working on the border. I actually, you know, my first experience was, um, in law school. I was, I worked on the border after nine 11 and I worked at a detention center, um, for an all female law firm, which is still there. And very cool. So never in my wildest dreams did I ever think that I'd end up in this arena of health law. It's just funny how life is. Um, I think what happened is I worked in the Obama administration and I worked, um, on food insecurity, which is also, uh, you know, an, an issue an impacts public health. And then I worked at dhs, Homeland Security and I happened, um, to have a portfolio cuz I was a counselor to the secretary. And my portfolio at the time included health affairs. So in the intelligence community, which is a diaspora of 22 agencies, like every agency within that arena has health. So like DHS has a health affairs office and I was part of the team that worked on Zika Ebola response. So, you know, it's just funny how one step in your career leads to another. So when I got the call to, um, work, you know, to, to join the team in New York at New York State, it wasn't necessarily because of my public health background, it was because of my, well, obviously working in Ebola and u Zika had a factor, but it was more about crisis management, being able to navigate an organization through a difficult time and being able to understand like, you know, we're policy and operations, you know, personnel, like all of those lanes intersect. So I think it really was, um, building up a pedigree and crisis management that led me to public health.
Speaker 3:And when you said earlier in terms of, you know, not being linear, I think that's such, such an important message cuz we often see people in leadership positions and think they must have had a grant plan, you know, decades ago written out that they, that they follow to a t But oftentimes it's, it's an issue of looking for opportunities and willing to be willing to take risks with. Do you see that that is sort of, that's been your path? And, and if so, you know, what gave you the, the audacity to, to use the word you used earlier, to, to take those kind of risks?
Speaker 4:Um, you know, I think what it is, cuz you know, now I, a lot of people have asked me this, you know, like how, how can you, um, manage with the stress or like the responsibility or, you know, I think what happens is that, you know, public service is like our calling. You either feel it or you don't. It's not something you can fe Um, and it's not just me and our, I think lawyers, I think, you know, like look at, look at what happened under covid, public healthcare professionals, you know, nurses, um, everyone from like the ambulance driver to physicians, to public healthcare professionals to how the community responded. I think when you're in the moment and you're doing something that you believe in, that just gives you courage that you don't really think about consciously<laugh>, cuz you're just doing it, you know? Um, so I think that helps to answer the audacity. But in terms of like the non-linear career path, I think that's becoming more common. Um, especially as just, you know, like when I went to law school and still, but when I went to law school, the thing was getting a job in big law, working for a big firm, having that type of pedigree, which is ob obviously there's nothing wrong with that and that's still a path. But I think what's interesting about being an attorney, even if you're interested in public health law, is that it's much more malleable. There are a lot more options and that it's healthy to evolve. You know? So as long as you have like a solid skill, it's like you're, um, a good analytical th thinker, writer, communicator, problem solver. You know, those are skills that never, um, go out of demand. But I think it's like how, whether you're in law school, you're an attorney, you've practiced one year, a 10, but how do you continue to hone and strengthen those skills but still keep that interest and passion? It can be, it can evolve and be different from what you imagine, but that's okay. And that can actually be healthy sometimes.
Speaker 3:Right. On the, uh, mentioned earlier your work with the New York Department of Health, um, you know, joining the department, uh, and leaving its operational response, I'm sure that was a whirlwind experience for you. Can you tell us what that was like in the, in the wake of the, uh, the Covid 19 pandemic?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean that was definitely an extraordinary, um, moment in time. I think, you know, it was when like, especially the first six months of Covid was so brutal and surreal. Um, you know, I was born and raised in New York and to see like my home state under so much crisis, cuz remember, you know, especially New York City was really like the hardest hit metropolitan area and in spring 2020, um, and it was, it was awful. It was absolute, um, it was a nightmare. And, um, and there are a lot of people that are still suffered and lost loved ones. But, you know, I think it was, I I I saw myself really as like one aunt in the colony. You know, there were so many people. Um, and that the Department of Health in New York is actually really big. It has over 4,000 employees and a lot of employees across New York State government volunteered in addition to the many people that worked in sacrifice. But, you know, I think what happened, um, a Steadman was that I was so busy and so deep in it that I almost didn't have time to reflect. So, for instance, I think the difference, what I learned, the difference between federal government and state government, it's, it's just like two different worlds, you know? So like in state government, especially in a place like New York, which at the time I, I, I still think really set a model of what a response would be since there wasn't exactly cohesive leadership in Washington at the time, you know, But figuring out, you know, I still remember like those six operational lanes, p p E, um, you know, before the, the vaccine getting personnel, there was like a scarcity of, of nurses, um, setting up mass vaccination sites, collecting data. Like, you know, we set up, um, dashboards for the openings of school within a couple weeks, which is like unheard of. So you had to just, you had to do things with a real sense of urgency and crisis with very limited resources. So I think I learned a lot be in the difference between federal government and state government and everything has, its good and bad. So you, so in state government or even sitting, um, municipal government, you can move faster and you have more freedom in a, you know, in a sense, but at the same time you have fewer resources. So, um, it was a lot of like, you know, big initiatives get it done as quickly as possible. And a lot of moments where I thought, How the heck are we going to do that
Speaker 3:<laugh>? Right. You know,
Speaker 4:We get it done.
Speaker 3:Following your time, um, at the New York Department of Health, uh, when you started at hhs, can you tell us a bit about your role on experiences as director for, uh, the Office of Civil Rights? For example, the, the issues you led, the teams you worked with?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean, the office is responsible for, um, very specific lanes, so fors, hipaa, um, and, uh, conscious and religious, uh, laws. And, you know, there are civil rights protections embedded within ocr. So for instance, Title six, section 5 0 4, um, of the Rehabilitation Act of 1974. Um, and, you know, I think that it's, it's a really exciting time, time's a turbulent time, but an exciting time to look at, uh, what changes whether from, you know, the courts, you know, like the Dobbs decision, um, to how regulations are being revised or, you know, promulgated in a different sense right now. Like, it's, it's, uh, it's, it's an exciting time in healthcare, but also a, a difficult one. But I think that, you know, 10 or 20 years from now, a lot of the work that's being done, um, will re really manifest. So it, it's one of those like blips and history for that office at the department right now.
Speaker 3:Right. So you're a formal more appointing two, uh, presidential administrations, first Obama, and then, uh, Biden administration. Love to hear your perspective on the appointment process, You know, what was that process like for you as a first generation Latina? And for any listeners who are thinking about pursuing a federal appointment at some point in the future. What's your advice to them?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean, that, it's, it's a fantastic experience. It's a specific experience, and if they're thinking about it, um, they should absolutely go for it. It's a good way to learn about politics and that you can, uh, be appointed not just in the federal government, but you can be appointed by your governor. You can be appointed by your mayor, you can serve on a board or commission, or you can do it full time. There are a lot of options, um, for folks who are interested in coming in DC and being part of a big presidential administration. You know, the, the way it works is that they're generally about 3000 seats, um, within the federal workspace. So I think it's like two and a half million or so federal employees. So roughly it's about, like, you can almost say less than 1% of the federal workforce is comprised of appointees. Um, and there's a big difference between being an appointee and a career civil servant. As an appointee, you're, you're, you know, appointed, you're charged with that administration, whereas a career civil servant, you can build out, you know, you're like the stability. Um, but one good way to start that I didn't know about was, you know, you can look in the Plum book, which is, um, printed by gpo, and you can look online and you can look at all the different positions, positions in the White House positions in the executive branch, um, at the departments. Um, but generally you apply and then you have to sort of like, build a campaign. It's almost like running for office. Um, traditionally you can work on a campaign or, you know, you talk to your congress representatives, but there are many different ways. It's more like an art than a science, but it starts with an application. And for me, um,
Speaker 2:And Lisa, where do you, where, where does that application go? How do you find that?
Speaker 4:Yeah, so the, that's a great question, Galvin. So for instance, um, when I applied, so let me back up. So President Obama was the first president history that if you wanted to apply, you applied online before it was, you know, like a game of who, you know, which it still is. But that application ultimately lands in sort of like the HR arm of a presidential administration, which is called ppo, the Presidential Personnel Office. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. Um, and, you know, and for this administration, you know, they're flooded with thousands and thousands of applications. Um, but you, you know, you sort of put in your preferences and, and there's a matchmaking process, but it's like any application process, it's very competitive. You kind of have to make your case, um, and see what happens.
Speaker 2:Got it. So, so a, um, so someone looking for a job in the administration will go to OPM and find the opportunities in the, the plum bug and then apply and then start seeing who, you know,
Speaker 4:Almost so at each president will have their own dedicated website where you will apply through a, in a portal that's specific to that administration. So it's not pm. Okay. I think the general website for federal jobs, like a career civil servant job is USA jobs.gov, which a lot of folks are familiar with. That's like, you know, the indeed, you know, monster warehouse for jobs mm-hmm.<affirmative>, but for appointee jobs, it's very specific. You have to apply, you know, like for President Biden through his portal, you know, President Obama, President Trump, each one of them had a very specific portal. Um, that's, I mean, I don't know if the current one is up, but usually, like you wanna apply it as soon as after the election. So for instance, for President Obama, the day after he was elected, a website came up on change.gov, and that's where you applied.
Speaker 2:Got it. Okay. That's super helpful. Um, so, so this has been amazing background and we we're gonna move next into the substantive, sort of legal part of, of the podcast. Um, but before we do that, I just wanted to, to comment on, you know, a couple of themes that came up. You hit on two themes that have been, um, coming up a lot for Stephen and I as we talked to folks. You know, one is the, um, the, the idea that these, our careers are not linear in health law. And then two is that there's, you have different skill sets, like health law is just so broad and diverse. You did immigration law to begin with and food insecurity, and that all relate relates, and it's part of this awesome field that we're in of health law. So just really great to hear that. And then the other thing that in particulars come up for you, um, in this discussion is how so much of your work is focused on issues relating, relating to communities of color. So, for example, the work you did as a legal aid attorney for migrant farm workers, and then the private sector counseling, corporate clients, and immigration related employment matters, and then in government. Um, so, so what do you think that was sort of a conscious effort when you went into your world as, as a, a legal professional? Or did that just sort of evolve over time?
Speaker 4:Thank you, Aena. Um, it's definitely a little bit of both, but deliberate on my part. You know, I think that, um, you know, the one theme for my, for myself or my career is that I have to feel it in my heart. Um, and being open to their different ways of making impact and serving. So for instance, uh, when I worked at U S D A, you know, um, there were ways where my work, especially if the civil rights office had an impact for migrant farm workers, and we worked on class action litigation that had taken decades to resolve, like, you know, I don't know if your listeners know, but there was the Pigford case where black farmers had been historically discriminated against and keep Siegel case for Native American farmers, Hispanic farmers, et cetera. Um, and then I remember when I was working for the firm representing clients, one of those clients, um, I can't name of course, but it was a client that was one of, you know, working in the meat packing and meat processing industry and trying to figure out how to navigate, um, you know, if you guys remember the, the most rigid clamp down, especially from ice, um, during the Trump administration. So it was like a, it was like on the other side, but from a very different perspective. So I think it's a balance Kelvin of like, you know, you, you definitely have a way of steering what direction you're going to, you know where you're going to go, but at the same time, you don't always know, you know, whatever aspirational desire you have, like, Oh, I wanna work at legal aid. Okay, um, what will that really look like? You don't really know until you get into the courtroom, or you don't really know until you start sitting with your clients. Um, the work will always surprise you in ways, but I think it's a combination of being open and flexible, but at the same time, you know, know, trying to be true to your own value and, and your purpose of why you began your legal career in the first place.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I, I, I love that approach and just, yeah, you don't know where the job is gonna take you, the issues that are gonna come up, the, um, you know, where helpful all is even going. So completely appreciate that. Um, okay. So then to move into some of our, um, substantive, um, topics, cuz you have such, such a breadth of experience in these areas, we wanted to get your your thoughts on, you know, two issues in particular, cybersecurity and vaccines. And on the first issue with cybersecurity and patient privacy, What are, what's sort of been your observations on how, uh, the pandemic impact impacted cybersecurity threats in the healthcare industry now? How, how has that evolved? Have you, have you seen that change, especially since the pandemic? And what can we as practitioners be doing to sort of adapt to those changes?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean, I think Covid has, has been labeled as the big disruptor. Um, but in a sense, you know, I think Covid has just unveiled, um, tendencies and, and dilemmas that have been there all along. They're just magnified. So for instance, you know, the healthcare industry has, was vulnerable, um, on cyber before Covid is just that, that that vulnerability magnified and you know, is now really apparent. So there are a lot of statistics that reflect that. Um, so in 2020, about one in every six Americans, or roughly 50 million people in United States were impacted by a health data breach.
Speaker 2:Um,
Speaker 4:Hacking is now constitutes about 75% of breaches, which is roughly like, almost triple up what it was five or six years ago at about 35%. So I think the biggest takeaway, Alvin, is that this vulnerability in cyber, it's not something that's going to come and go or temporal. Like this is the new normal and it's here to stay. Yeah. You know, just like employers are trying to figure out what return to the workplace means, what this hybrid remote, like, there's no question that, you know, what being at work means is going to be changed, um, for good. And the vulnerabilities of cyber has impacted the healthcare industry where it, it's no longer something you can think about after one breach or one hack after something bad happens. Um, industry has to now integrate, um, serious attention and vigilance and cyber on a regular basis because, um, it's just getting worse unfortunately.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. We all experienced that. And, um, and another big issue that you've worked on is, uh, vaccines and, and, uh, equitable access, uh, to covid 19 vaccine programs. You know, one thing that we, you know, see in the literature and, um, there's been lots of discussion is about, uh, how, uh, communities of color have been disproportionately impacted by the pandemic in, in terms of infection rates, hospitalization, death, access to vaccines. Um, can you tell us your thoughts on what again, we as a, a health law bar, um, and, uh, in private sector and just all sectors that are dealing with healthcare, what we can do to, um, continue to address the e e equitable access in vaccines?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think, um, you know, whether you're a a law school student, you're thinking about law school, you've practiced, you know, one year, 10 or 20, I think that, you know, we as attorneys have, um, a gift or a privilege to be able to be critical about how, um, a dilemma like health disparities can be shaped. You know, So, so to be more specific, um, when I worked in New York, uh, what health and equity was at the time was figuring out how to maneuver again, you know, this is like the beginning of the crisis. How do you maneuver and the line both policy and practice to figure out how to create a response. Cuz you know, that just those disparities have been there all along, especially when, um, essential workers, you know, were the ones that were keeping us safe. And so many essential workers, um, are from minority communities, especially in New York City, like immigrants, right? So, um, it was figuring out, for instance, we did free covid testing for migrant farm workers in rural and upstate New York, um, in a way that didn't disrupt their ability to work. We distributed, you know, free ppe, you know, remember how scarce it was at the very beginning mm-hmm.<affirmative>, um, you know, work with community based organizations to provide everything from, you know, like, uh, assistance with food, you know, to masks. Um, we purchased additional inventory, you know, everything from like respirators, um, to hospital gowns, which became a big luxury. Um, so it was figuring out how to do that in a response. Um, health equity is very different from the federal field. So for instance, one of the first things that President Biden did on day one was to sign an executive order on health equity, um, and go to White House. I think it's just health slash health equity or just, I think it's White house dot go slash equity. Um, and you can read more all about it there. And that is, you know, like a 90 agency wide whole of government approach that's gonna take several generations. But how do you institutionalize solutions to bridge all these gaps? So again, as lawyers, you know, are you an attorney working on federal policy, Are you working at the state level? Are you working for, um, a hospital system and representing them as a client or general counsel? I think there are different ways where all of us, especially as Latinos, Latinas, members of the Latinx community, we can all contribute our value add in our cultural competence, our upbringing, our values, everything we talked about at the beginning to help shape and nuance, um, real systemic solutions to these challenges that we know have been there all along.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's a great point too. I mean, one that you address it health inequity from different layers, different levels, the federal government, the local level, you know, as a practitioners in different industries that, uh, health, health systems, you know, in managed care companies, um, all different spectrums. And then did we all bring our own personal perspective too? So I really appreciate those points.
Speaker 4:Yes. And I would just add very quickly, vinno, one of my, um, favorite, uh, expressions I remember from President Obama is that he would always say, government cannot do it alone. And that is so, so true. So it's a multidisciplinary solution, right? It's not all government nor all private sector. It's everybody. Everybody has to play a part. CBOs, activists, you know, all of us play a part in that solution. I think especially for health disparities, that's particular true.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Great point.
Speaker 3:So Lisa, um, you mentioned earlier that your tenure at hhs, um, and you just completed it. Uh, so no longer, uh, you know, government mom, could you tell us what's, what's next?
Speaker 4:Yes, that's a great question. Thank you, Stevan. Um, I'm, I'm a, I've begun research on an endeavor that will take a couple years in the fellowship. I'm, I'm hoping that I can, I'll have more since I'm just beginning about six months or a year. Um, but it's an exciting opportunity because, um, I'm, I'm eager to, to do something in a space that's about building innovation and creating something. Um, and I think that we need that more than ever right now. So, so we'll see to be continued to step on,
Speaker 3:Look forward to monitoring that. And it sounds exciting, uh, in your view, Lisa, what can we do to increase diversity in the health law field and health and life sciences bar?
Speaker 4:Ooh, that's a, that's a tough, that's a little bit of everything, right? That's like we need, um, more, uh, more, more of us in law schools, more of us as law school professors, um, more financial aid<laugh> so that we can actually, um, practice and pay the bills, um, and more opportunities and more representation, right? But I think it's also not just representation, but support. So I think how we can support each other, whether we're just beginning or midway or at the end of our careers, um, but building that community of support, I think is the secret ingredient.
Speaker 3:Great advice. What advice would you give to younger attorneys who are just starting to navigate a career in health law?
Speaker 4:Um, in health law, I think that they have a really bright future ahead of them. Um, you know, we know overall, you know, particularly in the us the healthcare system is broken. And I think we need a lot of fresh perspectives, talent, expertise to figure out how we can make it better and improve it. So I think it's be bold and be confident. I know that it, a lot of us do this as like, Oh, if I study this or I pursue this, this is going to work out this way. And the truth is like, it's really hard to say what dynamics are happening right now, and these career niches, how they're ultimately gonna play out. So I think it's, if you're pursuing something that's really of interest to you, um, and it's, it's authentic, it's always gonna work out. So just, just trust your gut and, and keep going.
Speaker 2:Yeah. That, I think that's great advice. Not just for early career attorneys, but for attorneys who are changing the shift of their career or going on one of the different, you know, off the line, one of those other linear paths, um, and another health law professionals. How would you describe your experience as a Latina, healthcare, life sciences, uh, everything else that you are attorney<laugh> in a few words, and what would, you know, what, what, how would you describe that?
Speaker 4:I think, you know, just looking at, um, you know, like the difference, for instance, for immigration law or like corporate law, I think it's understanding because healthcare has, well, like immigration, it's, it's, it's a system that needs serious comprehensive reform. I think it's understanding to be patient and that it's okay that if you can't fix the entire problem, but being able to focus on even one aspect that's specific with consistency does make a difference. I think sometimes, um, folks wanna change everything or like, they think that changing the world is some big sweeping romantic, you know, before and after. Um, but it, it doesn't always work that way, right? And so one of the things that I've learned, particularly in public service and public health is that you don't always know tangibly how what you're working on now will impact people, but you still do it knowing that it's for the better. And I think it's also being open conversely that sometimes, I mean, you know, the, how we think for instance in these big positions in Washington, what people need, it's not always the right fit, right? So I think it's being humble enough and open enough to know that it's a reciprocal relationship. And I, I think for the future, cuz this is happening in every industry, the real focus will be on how do you build customer centric systems, right? And so for communities that typically have not had had that voice or that, um, fiscal power, like communities of color, um, that they can exercise, you know, their choices, they can shape, um, how their systems are designed. So as attorneys, maybe you represent a class action case, or maybe you have a client for a case that sets, sets a precedent or maybe you're shaping policy, whether it's at the state or the federal level, um, or maybe you're teaching, right? But there are many different ways that you can exercise your career and your skills and your heart, your brain to be part of that, right? So I think it's being open to all of that, but understanding it's a two way street because you're, you're serving people, you're making a difference with people.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Wow. Lisa, we cannot thank you enough. You've just, you know, this whole conversation, just sharing your experiences, your, your, your thoughts, your, you know, your sage advice. And, um, it's, you've had a fascinating, amazing career and the way you sort of approached it with an open mind, an open heart, um, in a lot of different directions, It's been such a wonderful opportunity to speak with you and, um, you know, would Youc macas, we thank you, a, the American Health Law Association, the Hispanic National Bar Association, uh, really appreciate the opportunity to speak with you today. So thank you.
Speaker 4:Well, thank you. H N V A, thank you Ana. And it's Devon. It was a wonderful, um, treat. I enjoyed every minute of it and however my experience can help inspire or encourage, um, I'm all for that. And my last tip is financial aid<laugh>, I'm, um, you know, I'm applying again to the PSLF program, right. And
Speaker 2:What is that again? The pslf,
Speaker 4:The Public Service Loan Forgiveness Program. Oh,
Speaker 2:Okay. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 4:<affirmative>. So, uh, I would say that without that program, going back to the audacity, I don't think I would've even had the audacity to apply to law school cuz I had no idea how expensive it is and how little financial aid there is. Um, but at this point in my career, I'm still, you know, I'm, I'm one of the many people that I'm hoping, um, can now be accepted and go through that program successfully. I've tried before. So I think, uh, you know, going back to your listeners, your attorneys law students, it's just you, you make that map, you make a plan, but you also, um, folio heart, but, but make sure that your bank account<laugh> is, is going in the right direction too.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And I think again, that applies to the attorneys, the health law professionals, you know, paralegals, all of us pursuing this, this health, um, jobs in this, in this sector.
Speaker 4:Have a great day everybody. Thanks so much. Thank you guys. Thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to ALA speaking of Health Law, wherever you get your podcasts. To learn more about ALA and the educational resources available to the health law community, visit American health law.org.