AHLA's Speaking of Health Law
AHLA's Speaking of Health Law
Health Law Career Journeys: Lee Nutini, Senior Counsel, Ro
In this series from AHLA’s Early Career Professionals Council, health law professionals share their career paths, what they wish they had known as students, and what a typical day in their job looks like. In the inaugural episode, Alé Dalton, Associate, Bradley Arant Boult Cummings LLP, speaks with Lee Nutini, Senior Counsel, Ro. Lee advises Ro, a direct-to-patient telehealth company, on clinical operations and health care regulatory work. He talks about how risk taking and the ability to pivot helped advance his career, transitioning from litigation to regulatory work, and appreciating the value of time.
Watch the conversation here.
To learn more about AHLA and the educational resources available to the health law community, visit americanhealthlaw.org.
This episode of A H L A speaking of health law is brought to you by A H L A members and donors like you. For more information, visit american health law.org.
Speaker 2:Hey, welcome to H L a. Speaking of Health Law podcast. I'm Allie Dalton, and I'm an attorney at Bradley focusing primarily on healthcare transactions. This episode is brought to you by the Early Career Professionals Council, E C P C, which is maybe my favorite acronym in the healthcare world. Um, our goal for these episodes is to showcase the breadth of career paths of HLAs members and encourage those folks who are just starting their careers in health law about all the different options and possibilities that they have in this space. And I'm particularly excited to welcome our guest today, Lee Nutini, who is senior counsel at roe. I actually had the privilege of going to law school, Lee and his wife, and so I'm really excited to hear, um, his story, for him to share his story with y'all. And without further ado, Lee, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 3:I'm so glad to be here. Thank you so much for the invite. Um, this is a great crew. Um, again, thrilled to be here. Uh, my name is Lee. I'm a senior council at Roe Roe. Just a little bit about them. It's a direct to patient healthcare company. Telehealth company works in all 50 states, um, and I help advise them on clinical operations and healthcare regulatory work.
Speaker 2:Very cool. I am really excited for you to share with folks how you got to your current role. Uh, this is not where you started your career, and I know folks are always eager to<laugh> to figure out how to get cool jobs like yours. So please tell us all the
Speaker 3:Secrets. It is a cool job. I will say that a little plug for Rowe. It's a great job. Um, I took a lot of risks, honestly. Um, I graduated, I think listeners, let's zoom out. Listeners are like, when does this guy graduate? Like, what, how do I Yes. Like, what's going on? Right. So, um, you know, I'm still an early career professional. Um, absolutely consider myself still on the learning track. Um, I've been a lawyer since 2015 and I've gotten where I am now by taking a lot of risks. Um, I was willing to move around and, and take jobs that really made me lean into different types of healthcare law, and I'm going to that in a second. Um, but I really wanted to, to emphasize that it's okay to have to pick up and move. It's okay to have to sort of go and learn something different. Didn't really change, not change careers, but really change, um, job functions. So when I was finishing law school, um, I was very fortunate to have a clerkship, but it was outside the state of Tennessee, the, the, my home state and also the state where we went to law school. Um, and I was willing to go jump and go and go do that because it was worth, it was worth the risk of picking up my life and moving it somewhere else for the opportunity and for the learning opportunity, I should say. Um, and, and while I was there, I actually, frankly, I said I'm still committed to healthcare law. I didn't have a lot of that training back in law school because at that time, UT Law didn't have a lot of, um, health classes.<laugh>, and I'm sure you remember this, right?
Speaker 2:Once we left, they started the program. Yeah. So<laugh>,
Speaker 3:They're doing great now at it, but back then we, we didn't really have it. So definitely, uh, was being, was being self-taught. So coming from that, I was thinking, how do I pivot into healthcare law? I, I've always been interested in it. How do I really get in that spot? And I realized I'm going to start cold calling some firms seriously. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. So I'm at, I'm a judicial clerk. I'm, I'm up in Kentucky actually. And I start cold contacting firms. Luckily some people are picking up the phone at that time. Was able to get some interviews. Um, and then came, came in and joined a boutique healthcare litigation firm in Nashville. Um, and so joined them after my clerkship. And that was, and I love that because it was provider focused. Um, it was, it, it was in the courtroom deposition experience. Wow. Um, very, very dynamic from, from day one. And I did a lot of medical malpractice defense. Um, and it really, it really taught me how to be a good writer, how to be a good speaker, um, and really understood provider operations. And so I was right off the bat learning like what, what sort of like the, the boots on the ground healthcare, healthcare, um, operations were and what laws affect them. Um, from there, as I was sort of getting more in the groove of being a, a sort of a professional liability, um, lawyer, I thought, you know, there's way more out there in terms of healthcare. Healthcare law is huge. It's massive. I took another risk and decided to go to King and Spalding and I joined their, their headquarters down in Atlanta to do false Claims Act litigation in managed care litigation, which was completely new to me. Yeah. So, um, but I, I really, I wanted to take the provider operations and sort of the provider's concerns and move that into, you know, more complex litigation that really is not just about professional liability, but about like our whole health system and our whole provider practice. Yeah. And so move and jump to King and Spalding and did that for a while. Um, and then a little thing called the pandemic happened and I realized that, you know, a lot of my provider clients are, were not necessarily looking towards the future. And I really wanted to, to really assist an innovative program going forward. And, um, was able to get in contact contact with some folks at roe, my current, my current spot. And, um, they needed some healthcare regulatory council and I pivoted from litigation to regulatory. Um,
Speaker 2:Yeah. Which is a big shift. Yeah. There's an overlap there, but how is that, so along the way, how did you, how did you learn how to do that? Like how did you, you know, go from med mal defense to now regulatory and like what would you say to people who, I mean, I know you said you've taken risks Yeah. Which I think is kind of the core of your story, but like, what would you say to a student who's like, I have no idea how I'm gonna pivot this opportunity that I have immediately out of law school into doing something? Like what you're doing at roe,
Speaker 3:You've, you, so you do need to be ready to, to move. I, if you notice, I've moved, I moved from, yes, I moved Kentucky, Tennessee to Kentucky and then back to Tennessee and then to Atlanta. And now I, I'm in Chicago now, by the way. Um, and so that's, that's part of the risk taking is that if the, if the the piece fits for you, don't worry so much about where you are. That changes now, I guess cuz you can do so much remotely, but, right. Um, I think I've, you wanna find this, the small thread in the work that you're doing that is relatable and transferrable. Um, and this won't come as any surprise, but you wanna find the things that can be important in the next role that you're interested in. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. So for me it was provider operations were true, which whether it it's professional liability issues or you're talking about like a false claim to act case in defense of an operation there, the pro here, here's what the providers are concerned about on the, on the ground level and the health systems are concerned about on the ground level. And I was able to translate that and speak their language. Right. And then jumping to roe, yes, I'm a litigator and I'm, I handle disputes. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, but I also know a lot about how the day-to-day, you know, seven to seven shifts and how the providers work together and they collaborate and all that. And that, that goes right into licensing scope of practice, um, you know, collaboration, supervisory rules, things like that, that are nuts and bolts, uh, regulatory, healthcare, regulatory issues. And so, um, and, you know, telehealth is exploding. So I was able to Right. Had no background in, in that, um, that world. But, um, you know, diving in, being ready to learn a lot, read a lot, um, has helped me make the transition from, uh, pure, you know, pure litigator to healthcare reg.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I love that. And it's so valuable for you to have that background and experience. I feel like it makes you an even better, uh, attorney for the role that you're in. So what does a typical day in your job look like? I feel like it can be hard to envision what people do either at firms or in-house. Um, what does it look like when you wake up and what do you do?
Speaker 3:<laugh>, I love this. I love this question so much. It's a great question because I asked this question during probably every interview I ever had. Yes,
Speaker 2:Yes. It's such a valuable question.
Speaker 3:<laugh>, no one answers it. No one actually answers it. They're like, sure, well, maybe I call somebody I, they don't really explain. Right. It's ok, I'm transparent. Explain, I'll tell you what it's ok. So being, so I'm at a health tech company, rose a direct to patient telehealth company. We are absolutely a tech company in the sense that we build our own emr. Uh, we, we constantly iterate on our platform. So, but we also of course are doing care delivery. So also as a healthcare lawyer in-house, I am constantly pulled between the short term urgencies and the long term sort of building. Right. So yeah, you're hustling between that. It's not just like at a, like at law firm when you get a a project in, maybe you asked for the deadline, but all of those things are things you can tinker. Many of them are things you can tinker on for some amount of time.
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 3:Sometimes here it's like, we gotta know today, like right now, like this hour, what we're gonna do next. And so here's what my day looks like starts on Slack. So we definitely communicate via, via slack at row
Speaker 2:Slack. Yes.<laugh>,
Speaker 3:<inaudible>. It's like very fast-paced for messaging, very informal. Um, very good for collaboration and quick collaboration. Um, it definitely, my day definitely starts on there because what I'm doing is I'm checking and seeing, okay, who needs my intention right now? Like today, maybe an hour ago even, maybe I missed you. Right? So I gotta, I log in, started on Slack, handle any urgent matters that are occurring, and I'm just at that point pumping down the list of what are they important to dos and are they getting squashed? Are they getting pushed down the list of priority based on urgencies that have come in? Right. Because by the time I've slept and come back, you know, we've had a patient being treated overnight. I mean, we have patients
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3:3:00 AM. So, um, I really am starting with those short-term emergencies and then we can move to say, well, in terms of our meetings today, w what can we actually tackle in our long-term priorities? Or what do we need to ha tackle urgently? So I'm starting on Slack and then switching to email and switching to Okay. We use Google for everything. Switching to Google for my, my meetings. Um, we are ver we're my, my teammates are all across the country in different time zones. Oh, wow. But, so slack is very important, but I will say we actually have a lot of meetings. I know when I was with, with law firms before I sometimes craved meetings. I thought, gosh, it would be so great
Speaker 2:My day
Speaker 3:Now I'm, I'm in meetings from, you know, nine,
Speaker 2:Please leave me alone.
Speaker 3:<laugh>. Yeah. It's like 9:00 AM to 5:00 PM Right. Like those, I mean like live, live, you know, meetings, hashing things out. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> cause so much, so much advice has to be given quickly. So we're, yeah, you're really thinking on your feet and you're sort of using your judgment in the moment, um, rather than, you know, taking time to write a memo. So my day does not include memo writing, really<laugh> with a lot of like live hashing out of problems. Yeah. Handling those short-term urgencies, uh, via Slack very furiously.
Speaker 2:Mm. Yes. Um, how do you feel like that's been a big shift for you going from like a litigator? Like how have you harnessed those skills of like, being a really strong writer into giving someone legal advice on Slack,<laugh>,
Speaker 3:<laugh>. So, right. The, the writing skills in some sense go away because you're doing it so informally. Um, so it was a big shift going from, you know, king and Spalding litigation to Roe regulatory work. But to me it's all about communication. So my goal is if I'm writing something mm-hmm.<affirmative>, I'm, I'm taking time to sort of distill it and put the right words on the page. I'm still sort of doing that in person. I'm gonna say, okay, how, how far do I need to zoom out for this person? Or what sort of teaching do I need to do? And I think you're doing the same thing mm-hmm.<affirmative> in writing. Um, so I think taking those communication skills and moving them into the in-person chats or moving them into informal messages, um, I think bring, you can bring a level of practicality, um, to the, to the communication still.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I love that. And that's very good advice. Okay. So if you were to chat with Lee one L year, um, starting off or even pre-law school Lee, um, what is something you wish he had known, um, before, you know, he knew what his career would look like?
Speaker 3:That's a, a really, really good question. I would probably emphasize I wouldn't, so let's say what I wouldn't say, I wouldn't say, okay. More the com more of the common things about, oh, well maybe you shouldn't study too much because you should go network. Like that will be really important, right.<laugh> or, but then the, the people who network too much you, like, you should have studied more,
Speaker 2:You should studied more<laugh>.
Speaker 3:So it's, it's neither of those things for me it was, it would be a reminder. I would go back to old, or I guess elderly and say younger<laugh> and you say you need to remember the value of time. So you wanna get in this niche area like healthcare law. Yeah. And you need to understand right now you have way more time than you will in the future. Mm-hmm. When you're a professional. I mean, I think that's always true for a student.
Speaker 2:So true<laugh>, you
Speaker 3:Don't realize you have so much more time when you're a student.
Speaker 2:Soak it up,
Speaker 3:<laugh>, write that down. Students who are listening, you have way more time now, I swear to you, you have way more time now than you think you do. So I would go back honestly and do something a little bit nerdy and say, Lee, you've got several extra hours in this day. Yeah. Please dive into the healthcare law that you wanna care, that you wanna learn about and you care about. Please go. Whether it's like checking out stuff on, you know, Wikipedia or doing some classes on Khan Academy or whatever, like go learn more about healthcare in America and that will help you get to where you want to go. And you have the time now to do it. So I would again, bring that reminder and say, time is everything. You've got more of it now than you will when you're a professional.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a really good one because I do feel like that's one where, especially with us who did not have a healthcare background going into healthcare, the learning curve is already so steep when you become a young lawyer and then you add on top this like highly regulated industry, um, that has so many different rabbit holes, it can be really daunting. Um, which I think maybe might be a good way to kind of wrap up and kind of, uh, make a pitch for students and young career professionals or early career professionals rather to get involved in H L A. I know that you have, uh, been a very active member and you are, uh, you spoke at a conference recently, you were one of the panelists. So I would love to know how you think that folks can harness the power of A H L A into making their paths a little easier than maybe ours. Were<laugh> learning healthcare law.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I, well, I think one of, in terms of nuts of bolts, I think the, the, the, the podcasts and the webinars that are put on and the cos are great from a ho like really impactful. Um, you definitely are hearing from experts. Those are great to listen to. But in terms of getting involved, um, I think submitting speaking proposals and sort of getting your name out there, you know, it takes a few times to put your name into a habit. It gets pulled and you'll get to go in front of an audience and speak about something. And I was able to do that at the recent fundamentals conference, for example. And I think there's really a, it, it's really great to go to those things in person and, and interact because I think you will end up at a dinner table or grabbing a coffee or drink with someone who, again, is very, is a, is a, is a partner and a firm you wanna go to or is the, you know, the, the, the, the lead regulatory lawyer at a company you're interested in. I do think, I mean it's, this is, this is sort of old advice, but it is true advice that the networking at those events is, is amazing. And I'll tell you, once you go from your first job to your second job, definitely continue to get together with those people at your former job because I think amazing what, what we've been able to unlock with former, um, former colleagues in terms of let's put together this paper to, to publish or let's put together this conference Yeah. Proposal. Um, and I think that it's, it's almost easier to do it when you're out of the game with those people. It's to say, listen, we both have, we've take taken divergent paths, but we can both work together now and bring different perspectives to some work that we used to do. Um, and you have that trust cuz you've worked together. So I think that's a way to, my initial, my initial advice to folks will be definitely dive in, always volunteer for things with the h l a, um, to get involved, um Right. You know, right. For the magazine. Um, and then beyond that, as you get a little bit more in your career, two or three years, I would say definitely look back and scoop up those co those former colleagues and um, and try to present with them.
Speaker 2:Yeah. That's great advice. Well, thank you so much for sharing your story and for spending some of your valuable non-mining time with us today. Yeah, of course, of course. Um, if folks want to follow what you're up to, is LinkedIn the best place to, to connect with you?
Speaker 3:LinkedIn is perfect. It's perfect. And you can also email me@leeleeroe.co. I'm available all day.
Speaker 2:Thanks for your generosity of giving that out. Um, well thanks so much again, Lee. It's great to see you and it's great to hear your story.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much for having me. It's been fun.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening. If you enjoy this episode, be sure to subscribe to a H L A speaking of health law wherever you get your podcasts. To learn more about a H L A and the educational resources available to the health law community, visit American health law.org.