In this series from AHLA’s Early Career Professionals Council, health law professionals share their career paths, what they wish they had known as students, and what a typical day in their job looks like. In this episode, Alé Dalton, Associate, Bradley Arant Boult Cummings LLP, speaks with Mara Smith-Kouba, Counsel, Bristol Myers Squibb. Mara talks about how she pursued opportunities and experiences to build her resume in health law, how she uses her AHLA membership to build connections in the industry, her experience as an AHLA leader and the many ways to get involved, and how she balances causes and connections that she’s passionate about.
Watch the conversation here.
To learn more about AHLA and the educational resources available to the health law community, visit americanhealthlaw.org.
In this series from AHLA’s Early Career Professionals Council, health law professionals share their career paths, what they wish they had known as students, and what a typical day in their job looks like. In this episode, Alé Dalton, Associate, Bradley Arant Boult Cummings LLP, speaks with Mara Smith-Kouba, Counsel, Bristol Myers Squibb. Mara talks about how she pursued opportunities and experiences to build her resume in health law, how she uses her AHLA membership to build connections in the industry, her experience as an AHLA leader and the many ways to get involved, and how she balances causes and connections that she’s passionate about.
Watch the conversation here.
To learn more about AHLA and the educational resources available to the health law community, visit americanhealthlaw.org.
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Speaker 2:This episode of A H L A speaking of health law is brought to you by A H L A members and donors like you. For more information, visit american health law.org.
Speaker 3:Hey everyone, welcome to A H L A speaking of Health Law podcast. My name is Ally Dalton, and I'm an attorney at Bradley. I work primarily on healthcare transactions and all things related to making those happen. And this episode today is brought to you by the Early Career Professionals Counsel , the E C P C. And our hope with these is to showcase the breadth of careers of our A H L A members and encourage those folks who are coming up behind us in all the different ways that they can shape their career in health law. Our guest today is Mara Smith Kuba , who is council at Bristol Myers Squibb, and she is a H L A royalty. So I am very excited to have her today. She has worn many different hats throughout her years of involvement in A H L A and I am just thrilled her to share her story. So, Mara, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 4:Thank you so much. I am incredibly flattered by your generosity of that introduction. Um, and I'll say that a H L A has been a guiding light throughout my career. It is something that we will talk a little bit more about how I got involved in, but it has shaped the professional. I'm the healthcare attorney that I am. It has shaped the kind of person that I wanna be, and there have just been so many benefits of being involved in A H L A that , uh, encouraging people to get involved in anything that I can do to kind of spread the word about the benefits of A H L A is something that I am more than willing to talk people the year off about.
Speaker 3:I love that. Okay, well, I'll take you up on that, but first if we can get started and you can share a little bit about your journey to your current role. I know that you were at a firm , I think maybe that's where you started your career , um, and are now in-house. And so do you mind sharing a little bit of when you graduated law school, how did you decide? When I grew up, I wanna be a healthcare lawyer, and how did you end up in your role that you're in today?
Speaker 4:Absolutely. Um, so started my career when I went to law school. I was looking for a health law program. I had had an experience prior to law school , law school where I did a year of volunteer work. Um, and I was living in a house with nurses and found that there was a , a really close tie between healthcare and housing. I was working in housing law and I thought, okay, well, like I really enjoy the healthcare component of it and I really enjoy the law piece of it, so let's figure out how I can have an impact on , um, health law. So I looked for programs and ended up back in my home city of Philadelphia in a health law program , um, where I worked in a hospital in Phil , a regional hospital in Philadelphia. And I worked in the courts for a little bit and I worked at a law firm, but really decided that being part of the business and really understanding how I could have an impact on a business, a healthcare organization, including the relationship with payers and products and , and patience and all of that was really important to me. So I did the sort of law firm thing. I did a couple of years there , um, and then had an opportunity to move to an in-house role in an insurance capacity. And so for me, my career had always been sort of guided by this idea that I wanted to be in health law. Um, and I had done some work at the law firm in the life sciences space. So that was what always excited me. Yeah . But when I had this opportunity to jump inhouse as a second year attorney, as an associate general counsel, I took it. I was like, this is, and an opportunity that I won't get to really get my hands on the business component of it. And , and sort of at the time I was also pursuing a master's in business admin and a master's in health admin with a focus on healthcare. So, so it all kind of tied into wanting to be part of the business. And so from there, I was working at , at this insurance, it was a third party insurer and ended up having an opportunity to go to my current company, Bristol Myers Squibb , um, and their transactions team, which I had been doing a lot of the physician contracting at the, the , um, insurance company. And so it was a pretty easy fit and then have recently made my way over to the commercial space, which is a little bit more of the sort of regulatory side of things. So very , that's where I'm today .
Speaker 3:Yeah , that's a great example of what a career can look like. I mean, you have not been, you know, out of school for a very long time and you've already had so many different experiences under your belt, which I'm sure inform and help a lot of what you do in the day to day . What would you say to folks who are, I feel like I get this question a lot, and I'm sure you do as well. There are folks who just really are so passionate about health law. I came in not knowing that I wanted to be a healthcare lawyer, kind of luckily fell into it and it was a great career decision. But I have folks who reach out who are similar to you, who know that they are passionate about healthcare, but maybe that first role immediately out of law school isn't looking exactly like what it looks like. Um, what would you say to those folks and how can they continue to kind of move towards that so that one day, you know, they can be council somewhere and be more in the industry side of things?
Speaker 4:So plug for a H L I here, <laugh> , <laugh> , this, this fits perfectly
Speaker 3:Natural transition into
Speaker 4:The theme. I was like, not scripted. We didn't discuss <laugh> did
Speaker 3:Not plan this out .
Speaker 4:Um, but it really is what I did. And I was similar. When I was at the law firm, there was a good component of my work that is life sciences and healthcare based . But at the law firm during at work, I sought out every opportunity if it was a nonprofit , if it was a nursing facility, if it was the small cases, I sought out any opportunity to touch health law in any way that I could at work. But then I buffered it. So not everybody wants to go back to school. So like, not endorsing, not endorsing that. But for me, I ended up pursuing two other degrees because I knew I wanted to be on the business side , um, with a healthcare focus. But then I also was involved in A H L A and was pursuing things. So I worked with my health law professors at my , uh, alma mater, and I started writing articles for them. I got involved with kind of connecting alums. I started working with A H L A, well, I had been working with A H L A, which we , we can discuss, but really diving into that and going to the conferences, meeting people, having discussions about health law, basically just the , the way I always say is I wanted to build a story so that if you looked at all of the things that I did, there would be a clear line drawn between the first thing that I did and the thing that I was doing currently that showed that health law was a focus, that this wasn't something that I just decided. Right ? So it's almost like it's a string that you can look at and say, okay, so she went and got a concentration. She was working on things and , and you know, how you build your resume or , or you build those things to kind of fit the career that you want. I, I did the same. I said, okay, I want a health law career. I might not be getting all of the health law work, but what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna buffer that with everything else that I'm involved in and everything else I'm pursuing, the conferences, I'm going to, the places that I'm speaking at, and just making sure that there was a very clear line that there was no question collaborating with people on articles, finding those opportunities in your community to go to health law networking events. I even went to my college alma mater, their , um, medical alumni council. I went to one of ,
Speaker 3:So Smart smart ,
Speaker 4:Which was all doctors, but it was just a way for me to get more information about what was going on in the industry that I was really interested in. So it's like, if you're not getting them in the office, find them outside. Yeah, that's good advice. Especially when you're not , because people will talk to you. You're not a threat to them . They don't think you're coming for partner. Like they wanna help you . They want you to get involved, and it's sort of a good opportunity for them to teach you something.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, that's such great advice and I would love for you too. It's a great, you know, pivot point to H L A . So how do we get involved with A H L A , how, you know, especially if you are maybe in an organization. So, you know, as a counter, I am at Bradley. We are one of the largest healthcare law firms in the country. I came in as a healthcare associate. And so the first thing you do is you go to h l A fundamentals. And it was sort of very , um, very encouraged for us to carve our own path in H L a , but also we didn't know what it was or didn't know what to do. It was just show up to the things that people go to. And it was very kind of , um, easy that way. And so I'd be curious to know what you think folks should be doing, particularly, maybe they're in a practice where only a small slice of their day-to-day deals with life science or healthcare. Um, where do they start? It's a little daunting. It's a great organization. But ,
Speaker 4:Um, well, I think one of the things that I love about A H L A is that they have all of the practice groups, right ? So if if there's an area that people are interested in, then they should join the practice group. Then they should, even if it's just going on joining the A H L A , joining the practice group and looking at at what people are posting, attending webinars, attending those sort of events. Because what you can do, and , and this is something that I encourage everyone to do. For example, I'm on the Life Sciences practice group. If there's a webinar and you go and you enjoy what somebody is talking about, reach out to that presenter and say, I , I really liked what you were talking about. How, how did you get involved in a , yeah , how did you become a speaker? But also just, I mean, they're really, I can't endorse enough the individual conferences, whether it's fundamentals, honestly, what I would say is the best sort of taste of health law Yeah . <laugh> annual meeting because there are so many opportunities to go to different sessions and also plenty of opportunities to meet people. And so it allows you to go and to sort of have a little bit of, of different tastes of what you might be interested in and how you might wanna get involved without like diving in and having to be on a board and having to be on a council.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely. So I yeah, I love that. No , and I think, again, like you said, there's so many different topics and so many different things that folks , um, can get, can get started on the attendance front, even from the comfort of their own home or office with the webinars. Um, I'll also make a plug for the e ccp . C does have networking calls, so if you're interested in that , um, please reach out. And there's also information online. It's a great way, it's sort of what it sounds like. It's like a zoom speed dating sort of set up , get to meet other folks. Um, and we love having law students and , and early career professionals who are interested in getting involved. Um, so okay, so we do that, right? We get involved, we maybe join a practice group, maybe attend, make some connections. Um, how do we get these leadership opportunities? I would love for you to share the details of kind of the capacities that you've served in, because I feel like I could spend the rest of the podcast probably just reading your bio <laugh> on all the things that you've done. But I think it's such a good example of how getting plugged in early can translate into all these wonderful opportunities. And I'm not, I I, I don't even know exactly which hat you're wearing at the moment. I just know that you've sort of ascended as, as we, as we've progress in our careers. I have just watched you kind of, you know , take over. So love to know.
Speaker 4:I'm very like , this is very flattering thing , <laugh> .
Speaker 3:It's true . I dunno .
Speaker 4:Well , it's wonderful to hear that, that my involvement in A H L A has had an impact on somebody because that, that is the goal. And I'll say my path was not necessarily typical because I got involved in a leadership role my second year of law school. Okay . Um , so I, when I say that A H L A has kind of guided my career . Yeah , it has been with me since I was an itty-bitty , uh, law student.
Speaker 3:How did you get that opportunity, if you don't mind just starting with that please .
Speaker 4:Absolutely . We can rewind to I guess 20, 20 15, 20 16 . Um, so because I had selected a school that had a health law program, part of our health law concentration was that we received an A H L A membership. Very cool. So as part of that, I kind of kept, and , and I had worked with firms in our career. It , my law school was a pretty early , um, law school. So they encouraged us to get involved in organizations. That was like a very, very big thing in law school even. Um, so I sort of was watching what was going on with A H L A and liked what I saw. And there was an opportunity for , um, the law student representative on the eec , what was formerly the Y P C , but that was Yes , the Young
Speaker 3:Professionals Council .
Speaker 4:Yeah , I was young professionals when I was on it . I've been gone so long that <laugh>
Speaker 3:We're early career now <laugh> .
Speaker 4:Yeah, exactly. But, so that's, I got that role. And so I had sort of al allocated funds to go to fundamentals and was able to go to fundamentals and met sort of the legacy leaders. There are people that have been involved in A H L A for a long time, like Ben Daniels, Lindsay Holmes, Caleb Knight, Rachel Ludwig, like, they were all sort of my , the generation before me. And so they really, the minute I got there, they helped guide me into involvement. And a lot of it also is that when you get a role on something like the E C P C, always pursue it, always pursue leadership opportunities. They're always looking for people, but then show up and do things . Mm-hmm . It's great to put a line on your resume, but that doesn't keep you involved. You have to show up. You have to be willing to put in the work. You have to be willing to write the articles or organize or do podcasts or whatever it is. That's a really good way. It , it shouldn't just be a line on your resume. A H L A is a lot of, and , and these leadership roles will , what you put in, you will get out of it. Yeah . So sure , you can go to an annual meeting and you cannot talk to anybody. And you can sit and not go to the networking events and leave. Or you can take on a leadership role. You can show up, you can build the connections. And that's kind of how you, how you can get and stay in these leadership roles. There are also volunteer opportunities. So if you're not on a council and E C P C is looking for volunteers and you see there's a call for volunteers, do it <laugh> , we're
Speaker 3:Always looking for volunteers. I would just add that <laugh> ,
Speaker 4:Everybody is always looking for volunteers. And it's also not like you don't have to write on something specific. They're not directing to write about. They want to know what's on your, on your day-to-day. Like mind . They wanna know what you're working with because it , it's an industry organization. I have also used the message boards and I think there's a new form of them now, but use message boards to ask questions when you're not sure what system to use. I think that I've like asked people about what e h R systems or what contract systems they were using . Yeah . You, you get out of a H L A , what you put into it. And I think that that was, for me, I kind of dove into it and was very excited and it paid dividends kind of on the backend.
Speaker 3:That's such a great reminder too. 'cause I do think it can be easy to sort of show up, but you know, not, not kind of involve yourself in a way that's gonna make it so that you can kind of build on it. Um, and it can help your career along. So I would love to know what you are currently doing with A H L A and , um, anything else like advice wise that you think would be good for folks to know as they contemplate maybe what practice group to join or, you know, sort of, I don't know what it looks like for them to be an active H L A member.
Speaker 4:Absolutely. Um, so again, get volunteer opportunities. Just take them , um, when people are asking for volunteer opportunities. Write the article, attend the panel, go to the networking event. Those are the ways that you're really going to get the most out of it. So, like I was saying, I, I started as a law school representative and I think my next role in E C P C was, it must have been on a work group. And then I think I was a work group leader, and then I think I was a vice chair and then I was a chair <laugh> .
Speaker 3:Yeah , I know you're chair <laugh> . Yes .
Speaker 4:I , I , I was definitely chair. I know I was definitely vice chair and I was definitely chair. Um, and then from there I had the opportunity, which was just an incredible opportunity to be the E C P C representative on the board of directors, which just gives an entirely new perspective to the way the organization runs, the way it runs with staff, the way it runs with members. And , and just really gave such a great understanding of how A H L A works and why it's so successful. Um, and you're working with some of the brightest minds in health law at , at every turn . Mm-hmm . <affirmative> , um, like E C P C is made up of some of the brightest young attorneys that I've ever worked with. The board of directors are leaders in the industry and have been for decades. Like the wealth of resources in a H l I cannot be understated. Like, it , it , there's no way it can be understated. Um, but right now I've had the opportunity to be on the Life Sciences practice group as the vice chair of education. And so that's kind of putting together these events, finally volunteers, seeing what kind of relationships we can have with people like A C P C or the W L C . Um, and so it's really just finding the place that fits for you. Like, is it life sciences has been the string that has sort of connected me from end to end of my career of something that I love. Like the best way to get involved in a h l is finding the area of health law . There are so many areas of health law, but the one that people love and enjoy and you wanna write about and you wanna talk about and you wanna know the language and you wanna , it . I, I used the example, I wrote an article, I think I wrote a bulletin a couple of months ago on the ftc , um, new end endorsement guidelines. I was reading it sitting on the couch next to my husband and I was like, did you look at this? And my husband is not a lawyer and not , yeah , no ,
Speaker 3:There's mine .
Speaker 4:I was like , look at this example that the FTC used for , for commercials and for all of this and , and this marketing example, like, if you love this stuff, it will make writing about it or talking about it much easier. So don't box yourself in, but also don't like take an opportunity just because it's there if it's something that bores you. Yeah.
Speaker 3:I think that's such great advice. Um , the last thing I would love for you to share about, so I know outside we could spend, like I said, hours sharing about your resume and all things you're involved in <laugh> . I know you're not just involved in H L A and obviously not just a great practitioner in your work, but I know you're involved with your alma mater and civically and politically it's like a million things that you do <laugh> and I <laugh> I'm guessing that we probably have some listeners, myself included , um, who would love to know how do we do this effectively? Like how do we go from being involved law students to becoming the kind of folks who , uh, you know, are practicing law but also giving back to their communities? And balancing maybe is not the best description, but how do we make it all work? Because I know that that's also a concern, especially for younger folks in their careers who are trying to establish themselves at their firms or their organizations and are sort of like, how does this non-billable life fit into, and I think you did a beautiful job of sharing how it's sort of has come back full circle and has propelled you in your career. But how do we balance it all? Just a simple question
Speaker 4:With a very easy answer. Um , <laugh>, I think the answer is pick the things that you care about. So it , for me, and I always say, when I was a law student and when I was an early, early practitioner, I did do it all. I did all of the networking events, all of what I effectively called business card exchanges where you go and you exchange business cards and that's the end of it. And maybe you meet one or two people for coffee afterwards. But what I did is I , as I got more involved in my career and more specialized in my career, I was able to really filter down who I was looking to connect with and the causes that I really cared about. And so then I, I basically did sort of an examination of conscious and was like, what do I care about? Like what do I care about? What are my causes? And so for me, higher education, health law, and women's rights are really something, the three kind of buckets that for me, that if I'm doing something, I want it to fit in one of those , um, three buckets because it's something that's going to energize me. It's something that I'm going to be passionate about. And also a lot of times it can link, each of these things can link with each other and sort of in silos. Um, so it , it's finding the things that you really care about. And the other thing too was the one-on-one connections. Because if you go to these bigger meetings and you meet somebody that you really want to build a connection with, I have met so many people through a H L A that I've been able to develop really beautiful connections with friendships. The former chair of Y P C , she and I went to on a vacation to Sedona together.
Speaker 3:I love that
Speaker 4:<laugh> , which is absolutely not, not what I think a H L A is intended to do, right ? <laugh> . Um , but you end up having a wonderful friendship with people. And so I think that if you have things in common and you, you pick the individual that you want to connect with and, and build relationships with, you'll know what doesn't fit into your scope. You'll know what you don't have time for. Um, and as you get more into your career and as you get further along, you can really start pulling out the things that are not energizing you, the things that you're dreading going to the things that you don't want to do. There are things a H L A actually is honestly never wanna <laugh> . I'm always very excited because I always Yeah. Which is great feeling like I enjoy the people, I have great friendships with them and it's like, it , it's just a combination of a lot of things that I like. Whereas there are other boards that have had to step away from because they just don't ignite that passion for me . I'm dreading going to them . I'm annoyed when I'm there and it doesn't. That's good . Sort of my life motto has always been, yeah , passion. Like live with , I love that. And so if you're, it was on my head at graduation of college, amazing . My life's amazing . So if you're not passionate about it, if you're not excited about it, it shouldn't be holding space. I love that . That's what I would say .
Speaker 3:Yeah. If you're not passionate about it, it should not be holding space. I , um, so grateful that you gave us some of your time to share about your career and h l a involvement. Uh , where can folks find you and keep up with you? I'm assuming LinkedIn. Thank you
Speaker 4:For sure. <laugh>
Speaker 3:So many other things out in the world. Um, but I, I am sure that you'll get lots of connections from folks who are interested in getting involved. Um, absolutely. And just a wealth of, of , of a resource for folks who are coming up at h l a . So thank you so much for modeling , uh, being a servant leader and all the things that you do in H l A . We're super grateful for you and we're so grateful that you spent some time with us today.
Speaker 4:Thank you so much for having me again. I , I will always give my time to a H l I . It is again, has been really the guiding light in my career and something that I am very passionate about. So thrilled to be here and thank you for asking all these questions.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. Well, thanks so much for listening. We'll see you , y'all guys next time.
Speaker 2:Thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to a H L A speaking of health law wherever you get your podcasts. To learn more about a H L A and the educational resources available to the health law community, visit American health law org .