AHLA's Speaking of Health Law

Launching Your Career in Health Law, Part 2

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Nothing is more important to your career than where you work. AHLA’s latest podcast will be invaluable to any law student or law firm summer associate. Thomas Wronski, of Thomas Wronski and Associates, a national legal search consulting firm, in Part 2 of this series, speaks with Amy Simmons, Director of Attorney Recruitment & Professional Development at Epstein Becker Green, about how to be a successful associate. Access Part 1 of this series.

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Speaker 1:

Hello, I am David Cade, executive Vice President and c e o of the American Health Lawyers Association. Our host for today's podcast is Tom Roski of Thomas Roski and Associates, a legal search consulting firm that specializes in recruiting, healthcare and life sciences lawyers for law firms. Our guest today joining Tom is Amy Simmons, director of Attorney Recruitment and Professional Development at Epstein Becker Green, a leader in health law. Enjoy the podcast.

Speaker 2:

Thank you, David. And thank you our listeners for tuning in today. As David indicated, my name is Thomas Roski. I've been a legal search consultant for over 20 years. I specialize in recruiting, healthcare and life sciences lawyers for law firms. The subject of this podcast is launching your career in health law. Part one was about the things law school students should do to prepare themselves for careers in health law. This part, part two, is about the things junior associates should do to be successful in the practice. Our guest is Amy Simmons, director of Attorney Recruitment and Professional Development at Epstein Becker Green. Welcome, Amy.

Speaker 3:

Thanks, Tom.

Speaker 2:

For the benefit of anyone who, uh, did not listen to part one of this series, can you please tell us about yourself and, uh, what you do?

Speaker 3:

Yes. Um, as you noted, I'm currently the Director of Legal Recruitment and professional development at Epstein Becker and Green. In this role, I oversee all aspects of the attorney recruitment process, which includes law school recruitment and the summer program, as well as lateral associate and lateral partner recruitment. In addition, I also oversee all of the areas that fall under professional development, including attorney evaluations, attorney training and development attorney workflow and productivity, business development planning, diversity initiatives, the mentor sponsor program, and the pro bono program.

Speaker 2:

Well, thanks, Amy. Boy, that's a lot of things you have in your portfolio. Um, in part one, we talked about the, the things law school students should do to prepare for a career in health law, and we talked about the law schools, uh, some of the preferred schools that have health law programs. Uh, we talked about the summer associate program, and we talked about getting that critical first year position at a law firm.

Speaker 3:

That's right, Tom. In part one, we discussed how to help a law student prepare for a career in health law and discussed more specifically what Epstein Becker Green looks for in law students.

Speaker 2:

Okay. So what can a new associate expect when she starts at a firm like Epstein, Becker Green or one of your competitors? I mean, I assume that there's some type of orientation or integration process. Can you tell me about

Speaker 3:

'em? Uh, that's correct. When our first year associates typically start in September, uh, when they start, they spend the first couple of days in orientation, which covers things like IT training, benefits, HR processes. Since most of our first year associates were previous summer associates. For us, this tends to be a refresher course. So although it's, it, it can be a long two days, it's, it's a refresher of what they had as a summer.

Speaker 2:

So they already had a taste of the firm and they have some understanding on how things work, where exactly where desks are and who's in charge

Speaker 3:

Exactly. Our IT systems, how to file documents, how to get documents. So the orientation serves as a reminder for them of, of what it's like to be at the firm. Um, from there we go into a few other set programs that we have specifically for our first years or junior associates. Um, in part one, we had laughed a little bit about a bootcamp, but we have created what we call a bootcamp, which makes it sound a little more harsh than it is. But when our first year associates start, we assign each of them to a partner in their designated practice and they shadow or work with that partner from when they start in September until the end of November. So

Speaker 2:

How, how does that get assigned? How did, who decides who gets assigned?

Speaker 3:

Um, I, I usually get the benefit of working with members of my staff, but we take a look at, um, partners who have participated in the past, partners who, um, who are good at sort of training and explaining and sort of, you know, bringing, bringing our first years up to speed. The whole purpose of this program is to help prepare this first year associate for private practice, help them build relationships, understand the firm, understand the firm's clients. So for example, in the health practice for our DC office, we try to, you know, we had somebody shadow one of our corporate attorneys that are in the health practice. We had somebody, you, um, shadow the DC managing partner so they can see what it's like there. We've had somebody mana shadowed shadow or chair of the firm and sort of see what his practice is like, but also what it's like to, you know, help manage and run the firm. So it's different perspectives. We try to get them into different areas, but it's really a great way for the first years to come in and train and try to get an understanding of, of what firm life is like. Everything from staff and projects to getting client bills out the

Speaker 2:

Door. So the idea is a young associates going to, by this time through the bootcamp mm-hmm.<affirmative> really get a better understanding and a real understanding of what, how things work. And I thought it was interesting that you have, uh, your managing partner also is shadowed. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> does a person, is the idea to have the person kinda understand the, the, the management side of being a lawyer. I mean, there, everybody knows about being a lawyer lawyer, but there's lots of management there. There is structure.

Speaker 3:

We feel like the, the business side of the law firm life is equally important. Even understanding, there's no expectation that the first year's gonna have to do any of that, but just the understanding of what goes on, how it goes on, um, you know, there's some things obviously that they can't necessarily be a part of, but just understanding what does a managing partner in a DC office really, what are those responsibilities? What are their considerations? So just seeing some of that really helps. Um, one of our first years got to shadow one of our general counsel, and again, there's certain things they can't be part of, but you know, there's a lot that goes into conflicts, checks and things like that that first years typically don't have a lot of exposure to. So it really gets them client exposure, but also some law firm management exposure that really helps open their eyes to, to what's involved in, in law firm life.

Speaker 2:

That's funny because in my business, uh, a commonality of unhappy associates is the associate who doesn't feel connected to the firm or, or doesn't understand why things happen a certain way and they, or, or they just think that things come out of the blue mm-hmm.<affirmative> that management, uh, that these overhead type issues, these structural issues just, just happen. And especially in a very large firm, you see that where a first year is gonna be 20 steps removed from any management that they, it's almost like something's coming down from heaven. Some, there's a thunderbolt that affects their lives. And really it's not, there's, it's not the lines are cloak.

Speaker 3:

Yes. I have found, if they can, a lot of it tends to be that, where it's like they have no perceived reality of how decisions are made or why things happen. And this helps. Again, it's a, it's a little tiny snippet into the window of what managing a law firm is like, you know, and it, it, it, it's helpful. I think they appreciate being able to see everything that goes into it. We've had some of our other more senior associates, they're like, I, you know, hey, I'd like to do that. Like, who can I shadow? Who can, who can I watch in the billing process,

Speaker 2:

A more senior associate,

Speaker 3:

A more senior associate, they're like, Hey, like, I want a chance at that. So it, it's been great. Um, and we, we certainly encourage others to do that, but we, we, we organize it in the form of a bootcamp for our first years.

Speaker 2:

So after the bootcamps over what comes next in the first year's career

Speaker 3:

Development. So our goal after the bootcamp is that they not only have a better understanding, but they have a, they have a steady stream and source of workflow because we do have our associates manage their own workflow, reach out to get their projects, maintain that flow of work. So after that, we, we continue to have a host of training programs that we, you know, that our associates can take advantage of for our junior associates. We do a junior associate training program that continues to teach them about the business of a law firm. We do a writing course where our junior associates take a three hour writing course. Writing tends to be something that we hear a lot of, uh, that, that our associates need work. Um, I think everybody does because writing tends to be stylistic and everybody has different styles. So it's not to say that everybody's bad writers, just that it's a, it's an area that we can constantly train and develop our attorneys in. Um, we host associate summits every two years where we bring all of our associates in, all of our offices together. Um, typically in Baltimore, a Philly for a day and a half of programming on various topics. But it's also a way for associates to get to know one another. You know, we have associates from the east coast to the West coast that don't get to interact a lot, and this associate summit helps bring them together to really do that. And one of the things which kind of goes with our bootcamp is the shadowing program that we created a couple of years ago, um, to allow our associates to get billable hour credit for shadowing partners, whether it's taking a deposition, doing a client pitch, and, you know, anything along those lines to where they can get on the job training and they can get billable hour credit for that.

Speaker 2:

So, oh, that's gotta be very, very important to a young associate who might be afraid that if I engage fully in this training program, well then I'm not billing it. Yes, I'm gonna be penalized on the other end.

Speaker 3:

It takes a little bit of the pressure off on both sides. We've had partners say that they've clients really appreciate knowing that they're gonna be bringing somebody, but the clients don't have to foot the bill. We've have associates who can get some billable hour credit towards their requirement every year. And it's, it's been a win-win so far for us because it, it's worked partners. We, we've actually had more partners than associates participate, but it, it's pretty close. Um, I try not to foster that competition, but we've had a lot of participation in it and it's worked out really well for us.

Speaker 2:

So, Amy, at a firm like Epstein, Becker Green, where there's a large health practice, or at other firms where there's a large health practice, how does a young associate, uh, find her niche? How does she decide, uh, or is placed into a, a track where she's doing, say reimbursement work or she's in litigation or she's in health transactions? How does that come about

Speaker 3:

For us? Most of the time, our first year associates, sometimes they will come in, but most of the time they do not come in with a particular specialty. And we encourage them for the first two to four years, give or take, cuz it's very individualized to explore all the different areas, take as many projects as you can. Typically, when we do evaluations of first years, they can have up to 20 people evaluating them because they're getting exposure to a lot of different attorneys and a lot of different practice areas. Usually by the, you know, third, fourth year we'll start to see associates develop their, their niche. But we look to them for what they wanna do. Um, we try not to pigeonhole them. We try not to force them into a specific area. Um, when we go back to the law school recruitment process, we look for diversity in terms of backgrounds and practice areas. So we're not necessarily hiring for summers that we think may wanna ultimately be reimbursement specialists. So we look for diversity early on,

Speaker 2:

Diversity of interest

Speaker 3:

Of interest, um, amongst other things. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, but diversity of interest. So we know we're not gonna, we don't want four of the exact same people because over time we need them to kind of diversify and wanna do, whether it's litigation or reimbursement or managed care or different things. So that plan has worked well, but we really let the associates find their path and we help them along the way. Figure that out.

Speaker 2:

So this all comes under, it would seem to me under professional development, is that

Speaker 3:

It does, that's that big professional development umbrella where whatever doesn't fall anywhere else tends to hit

Speaker 2:

Professional development.<laugh>. Um, so you assigned these first years mentors and you give them training and they have this, this associate shadowing program. Um, what, how, how, how are they evaluated and at what point in the course of the, of, of their first year are they evaluated?

Speaker 3:

So before this past year, we would do six month evaluation meetings after they started just to kind of give them a flavor for how things were going. And then we have an annual associate evaluation process. Um, we rolled out in September, a pilot project evaluation program for our first years. Uh, we want to try to get our first year's consistent feedback. So we're going to quarterly sit down with them, provide them with feedback that we're getting on a project by project basis to try to not allow six months or a whole year to go by before we give them feedback on how things are going. A lot of times our attorneys will give that one-on-one feedback or they can see how a memo was edited, but this is a project evaluation system that allows for that individual project feedback. And, you know, three months is a good period of time for us to kind of sit down and do quarterly sessions so they can learn and grow along the way.

Speaker 2:

I've heard that internally at law firms, there's a trend towards taking young associates and planning them out so that eventually they become business developers mm-hmm.<affirmative> and that they have client conflict. Whereas in the old days, you would put an associate in a room and that person would churn out work until the magical day came when, uh, she was eight years out or nine years out. Now we're going to make this person a partner. Uh, but that partner has no plans or no idea what to do now that they're there.

Speaker 3:

Yes.

Speaker 2:

What, what, what's your experience in that is?

Speaker 3:

So we have learned maybe the hard way that there's no magical switch that gets flipped when somebody becomes a partner. So for us at Epstein Becker, we do business development planning meetings with all of our nons shareholder attorneys. So there are, for us, about 170 meetings that take place every year. We expect all of our nons shareholder attorneys to complete a business development plan for our first years. It seems overwhelming. We'll sit with them, we'll work with them. A lot of their clients that we talk about are internal clients, who do they wanna work with? But we get them started in thinking about the business development process from day one. So when they do become a partner, it's not a foreign concept. It's not something completely new. They're used to it. We have many associates who develop business and have client originations very early on in their career. And this is a tool that helps them do that.

Speaker 2:

I encourage, uh, I generally work with, with partner level attorneys, but what I I do always encourage people to do is to, to get out and write and speak and to be active in the American Health Lawyers Association, go to the events, go to the training conferences or those, they're probably even more important or equally important than, for example, the, uh, the national conference because you can learn the, the substantive items, the things that you need to know. Um, and there's opportunities at, at a H L A events to speak and to network, uh, the AHL event in, um, in November every year. The fundamentals course is just absolutely necessary for someone launching their career. Yes. And health law. Um, in terms of writing and speaking, is it critical? Is it something that, that the firm and that you generally recommend?

Speaker 3:

It is, and we, it is something that our associates get very early on in their career. So we look at conferences like ALA's Fundamental Conference. We send our first year group every year we say it's a requirement. Clearly if they can't go, we'll get them the following year. But we send all of our first years to that fundamentals and it's to go and learn about the fundamentals of health law. But we also talk to them about, this is your first networking conference. This is your forming relationships with other colleagues, colleagues that may come in-house council one day. So we look at every conference that they go to as a training opportunity, educational opportunity, but also networking and beginning to learn how to do that. But we have our associates write and speak very early on and it helps them build their own personal brand, not only the firm's brand, but it helps them build their own personal brand. And that's very important for our associates to do very early on.

Speaker 2:

Does your firm ha have a pro bono

Speaker 3:

Program? It does. So our, we have a formal pro bono program and our associates, as I mentioned, with the shadowing program, our associates can get billable hour credit for participating in pro bono work. So there is a maximum amount of hours they can get credit for, but between those two programs, we encourage them to do pro bono because it's the right thing to do. Um, but also it's, it's part of our training programs. If you wanna be a litigator, pro bono sometimes is a great way to learn, whether it's doing an administrative hearing, taking a deposition, being part of that. We use it for many reasons. Um, and our associates tend to actively participate. Um, as with everything we like to, to, to foster competition. So our firm does have an annual

Speaker 2:

Internal

Speaker 3:

Channel internal competition where we, we try to work towards all of our attorneys participating in at least five hours of pro bono every year. So, and we'll pit offices against offices in a friendly competition.

Speaker 2:

Uh, Tolstoy and I, I like to wax poetic occasionally, but Tolstoy said, all happy families are happy the same way, but every unhappy family is unhappy in a different way. Not to say that a law firm's a family, but no way it is, you spend an awful lot of time together. Um, if an associate is working out well and is performing up to expectation, what does it look like? Can you spot that? Do you see what it's like?

Speaker 3:

You, you can spot it? Um, for, for me and my team members, you know, there's, there's ways you can spot it. A lot of times you can see it, everything's not about the billable hour, but you can see it in workflow. If an associate's happy, they're engaged. If they're engaged, they're gonna be part of many teams, the work is gonna flow. Um, you're gonna see that come through, whether it's the numbers or whether it's in the perception of others or the flow of work that they're getting. And in converse, it's gonna be the same. If you notice somebody's unhappy, they're gonna be a little bit less engaged. Maybe the work is not gonna flow or they're not gonna be as part as many teams. Um, and for us, at our professional development level, because we do manage and look at productivity, a lot of times our first glimpse into things starts to be an hours trends. Um, so we can kind of start to see it and try to diagnose things early on like, Hey, we see, you know, your hours aren't the same as they have been in the past couple of months. And then we can try to get in there and diagnose those a little bit earlier.

Speaker 2:

On the other side, what, what if an associate's not performing up to expectation? Is there a commonality there or is there something it's, you see,

Speaker 3:

Um, there's not necessarily a commonality for why it may be happening, but the, the trends that we see are sort of the, the triggers that we see tend to be the same. Um, and again, you can start to see it in the pattern of their workflow, which translates a lot of times into ours or whether or not they're engaged, whether it's in office activities or events. Um, you can kind of start to see if they, you know, we now have glass offices, so if you see somebody hiding in their office all the time versus out and about, you know, you can kind of see the little nuances of signs that maybe something isn't going the way you want it to, to go.

Speaker 2:

Uh, so let's say someone's struggling. Is there anything, uh, there's a trend that I've heard of that, that law firms make huge investments to recruit young lawyers. And the idea is that these people are supposed to do well. Everybody wants them to do well, but occasionally they don't. But in yours gone by, the idea would be cut'em off. It's not the trend though these days. The, the trend is to protect these investments and help

Speaker 3:

Them. It is. And I, I am happy to be at a place where that is exactly what we try to do, which is, you know, help them learn, help them grow, understanding when first year associates walk in, like sometimes if they're straight through, sometimes this is their first, you know, office job that they've had, they're trying to figure out how to navigate it. We have the mentor program, sponsorship program in place to help. Um, we have my department and staff members that are there to kind of help. You know, part of our job is to try to spot trends before anybody's even willing to confess that something's going on if need be. We'll invest in training, we'll invest in personal coaching. Um, so we will do whatever we can do to try to make it successful for both the firm and for, you know, the individual's career

Speaker 2:

As we come to, to the end of this podcast series. Uh, Amy, in your experience as, uh, head of recruitment and professional development, if you were going to give advice to a young associate starting his or her career in health law and you could summarize it in a couple of sentences, what would it be?

Speaker 3:

I would say to first go in eyes wide open that healthcare law, it sounds so simple and easy and it is just vast and it covers so many areas. So go in with no preconceived conceived notions of what it is, um, and then be willing to explore as many of those areas as you possibly can. Cuz the more you can understand the, the whole industry, I think the better you can understand the moving parts that are in it. So be willing to learn and absorb and, you know, embrace all of those different areas that are in health law.

Speaker 2:

Well, thank you Amy. That concludes part two of our launching Your Career in Health Law podcast series. Uh, we have another podcast coming out in the spring that I suspect will be of great interest to our listeners. The subject will be going in house and we will have as our guest, the general counsel of one of the country's premier healthcare companies. Please plan to join us.