Remembering Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg

In this podcast from AHLA’s Women’s Leadership Council, Christy Crider, Baker Donelson Bearman Caldwell & Berkowitz PC, speaks to James Duff, Director, Administrative Office of the United States Courts. Duff reflects upon his memories of the late Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, an early and prolific pioneer for gender equality. 

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:14

Hello, and welcome to the American Health Law Association Podcast on Ruth Vader Ginsburg. This is a podcast that is being provided by the Women's Leadership Council, and part of the Council's purpose is promoting the creation of an inclusive environment in which women will be respected and thrive in the practice of health law. And perhaps there's no better example of promoting the creation of an inclusive environment in which women will be respected and thrive than Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg. I'm Christy Kreider. I am a shareholder at Baker Donaldson. I chair the firm's healthcare litigation group, and I have the pleasure of chairing the Firm's Women Women's Initiative. I am a diehard super fan of Ruth Bader Ginsburg, and it is my distinct pleasure to have with me on the podcast today. James Duff. Mr. Duff is the, um, director of the administrative office of the US Court. He was appointed to the position originally by Chief Justice John Roberts. Um, and that became effective in January of 2015. And through his position as the Chief Administrative Office of the US Court, he came to know Justice Ginsburg. Mr. Jeff, welcome to the podcast. Thank you for joining us.

Speaker 2: 2:01

Thank you very much, Christie. Good to be with you.

Speaker 1: 2:05

Tell us a little bit about how you came to know Justice Ginsburg.

Speaker 2: 2:12

Well, I'm happy to and like you, I, I've, uh, great, uh, been a great admirer her over her career. And, uh, I first met her actually in 1996, uh, when I was counselor to Chief Justice Rehnquist. Uh, that was when I first got to know Justice Ginsburg. And then, as you mentioned that in this current role as director of the administrative Office of the courts, I've, uh, worked, uh, with her again in that capacity. And I actually started that, um, the job back in, uh, 2006, and did it from 2006 to 2011, then back again in 2015, as you pointed out. But it was in 1996 that I first met her. And, um, I was, when I was counselor, the Chief Justice Rank was, I was working on, um, a couple matters, uh, for internal matters for the court. And, um, at that time, uh, I un I, I just didn't even know it was some of the things I had been working on would come to the attention of the other justices. But one matter did in particular, involving some security issues, uh, we were, um, confronted with at the court in those days. And I was pre, uh, nine 11, but I had handled a matter, uh, for the court. And she sent me a handwritten note, um, of thanks, and it was so, uh, per personal and, and, uh, I was just so, uh, thrilled with it. Uh, and she, uh, indicated that I had exe, uh, exhibited the wisdom of Solomon in a, an approach I had taken on a matter. And, uh, it was such, it, such a great compliment, uh, especially coming from her, but also, uh, having a and a handwritten note, uh, was a wonderful personal touch. And, um, my and, and just my mother was a great letter writer. And, uh, I've always, I've tried to emulate that because I, I think a handwritten note makes you feel so special. But you can imagine, uh, how I felt getting a handwritten note from Justice Ginsburg and, um, what that meant to me. And over the years that that, uh, that personal, uh, uh, touch and relationship grew, and, uh, I've certainly saved, uh, my handwritten notes from Justice Ginsburg.

Speaker 1: 4:55

Oh, I bet. What a treasure to have those. Um, you mentioned that during those remarks that a handwritten note shows such a personal touch and attention to detail. Take us inside her chambers. Tell us what those looked like.

Speaker 2: 5:13

Well, she was, uh, a great, uh, uhdo of, uh, art. And, uh, she had on display numerous pieces of art, um, both that she had accumulated personally, and, and the justices, uh, are, are, uh, given on loan, uh, pieces of art from the Smithsonian. And, uh, so it was, uh, her chambers was, uh, it was like a, uh, an art gallery, really. And, uh, um, but also very, she had a very, it was very personalized, as they all are, um, and, uh, very comfortable. She was a very, uh, warm person and, and, uh, a special friend. And I mentioned, um, the handwritten notes. I would say the, the most special one I had was when my mother passed away, and I, I, uh, received a, just a wonderful note from Justice Ginsburg. Um, uh, and, uh, it's a real treasure, but she was just, she's just, uh, her chambers reflected her personality. And, um, it was, uh, uh, a welcoming environment, I would say.

Speaker 1: 6:36

I think all of us are, are looking for ways to connect with Justice Ginsburg, and I too am a huge believer in making the office space in which we spend our days beautiful and inspiring and, um, and comforting. And so thank you for giving us the peak inside her beautiful chambers. You mentioned her love, um, of art, and I've read that she also really, really loved the art of beautiful music. Can you tell us a little bit about the program music at the Supreme Court and what Justice Ginsburg's role was?

Speaker 2: 7:15

We had a wonderful, uh, tradition, I think it was started by, uh, justice Blackman, Harry Blackman, uh, music at the Supreme Court. And it was, uh, one, one day a year. Uh, they set aside an afternoon over lunch break, basically, um, and invited a, uh, you know, well known musician to perform, um, a musical piece for about an hour, a little concert at the Supreme Court. Um, justice Blackman, as I mentioned, started it, uh, for the court, and I believe, uh, justice Ginsburg inherited the role of, uh, coordinating it. It, it may have moved from justice to justice, but, uh, uh, she was, uh, she embraced it, uh, for a, a long period of time. Um, and they, the artists that would come and perform, volunteer to come and perform were outstanding, um, artists. I, I remember, uh, Denise Graves, the op great opera singer, and she was DC based in Washington dc it was her hometown. So she, she performed, uh, maybe more than once, but, um, it was wonderful, um, private, uh, uh, presentation, and it became very popular. I think NPR started broadcasting it. Uh, I don't know if they still do, but, um, certainly, you know, 20 some years ago. I know they were. And, um, so I would, I I love music. I know you do too, Christie. You're a good performer. But, um, I got involved a little bit with, uh, with that and would make recommendations from time to time. One, one year I recommended, uh, bluegrass music, which is a little bit out of, uh, out of the ordinary. And, um, she was very interested in doing it. And then I later learned Justice Scalia was a big, I didn't know Justice Scalia was a bluegrass fan,<laugh> until I, uh, learned, uh, on when, when he passed away. Uh, I wish I had known it back then. We probably could have pulled it off. Um, we didn't have the bluegrass presentation, uh, that, that particular year that I had recommended it, but I'd given her a list of some names, some na good Nashville names that you might recognize,<laugh>.

Speaker 1: 9:41

Uh, well, you, you and I share a mutual love of music and particularly of Bluegrass, and it just warms my heart to think about Justice Ginsburg being intrigued by bluegrass music. And I did not know until you told me that Justice Scalia loved bluegrass music. Um, I read that Justice Scalia and Justice Ginsburg shared a mutual love of opera. And, um, did you observe that and tell me what, what you saw?

Speaker 2: 10:16

Well, they did. Uh, they not only shared, uh, the love of opera, uh, but they really had a great, great, wonderful relationship, uh, uh, and, and it's pretty well publicized these days, how, uh, what great friends they were, uh, they and for many, many years be before they, uh, got on the Supreme Court. They were friends. And, uh, it was really wonderful watching, uh, the them, uh, interact, I think particularly nowadays in these so extremely polarized times, uh, as very uplifting, even in those days, though, it was, it was uplifting to see, um, that, that very natural friendship, um, evolve and beyond display. Um, it, it, um, you know, 25 years ago it was a, as well publicized that is their friendship. Um, and it, it was, it just kind of nice to see even, uh, at the Supreme Court, uh, you know, and the way they interacted there. Um, and knowing that for many years before it was, um, more publicized, sort of like that country, Iowa country before country was cool,

Speaker 1: 11:41

<laugh>,

Speaker 2: 11:44

You know, it was, it was nice. It was really nice to see that, uh, uh, even in, in the days when it, the country wasn't as polarized as it, it unfortunately is these days. Um, that friendship was, uh, inspiration, uh, to all of us who worked there. And, um, I think today can be, should be held up as an inspiration to all of us, um, that, um, whatever political viewpoints and differences we might have, it shouldn't, uh, interfere with, uh, personal friendships and relationships. And they were, they, there was just, uh, great to observe. I mean, they were, uh, two very, very bright people, two very funny people, and they enjoyed each other's company. And, uh, you know, it was kind, kind of fun to, uh, be on the fringes and, and, and observe it.

Speaker 1: 12:42

I would like to ask a follow up question on that. You, you talked about her relationship with Justice Scalia. I'm interested in your observations about how she built relationships with others, those, those she disagreed with, and then those who thought similarly to her in their, in their political stances. And, um, you know, she was so small in stature, she had so many feminine traits, her, her intricate distant callers and pearls. Can you talk about how she built relationships and if, if, in your observation, how she used her more feminine traits to build relationships and consensus?

Speaker 2: 13:32

Well, it was, it's an interesting, um, observation about her. I mean, she had this wonderful, uh, combination, I would say of, of, uh, of a softness, but also a strength. I mean, you know, you, you made the observation about her physical appearance and stature. She was the strongest person I've ever known. And I, I mentioned this in a, uh, some written remarks that, uh, we, we did. And, um, given a little while back about her at her passing, but, uh, I, you know, justice White was a former professional football player, and he was, you know, he, he had a handshake that could really, you know, bring you to your knees,<laugh>. He was very physically strong, but I would say Justice Ginsburg, uh, was even stronger. I mean, she beat five cancers, five episodes of cancer in her life, she overcame. Um, and they were serious cancers, uh, pancreatic and breast cancer. And, um, I've never known anybody, uh, stronger than she was. So she had this, uh, inner strength and, and a physical strength, um, no matter, uh, her, her size. And, um, and, and, but she also had, uh, she was very, uh, her softness very, was very soft spoken and, and, um, had, uh, this is great combination. And I think she, uh, was very effective in, in, um, her interactions with her colleagues. Um, but it, because it was a, you know, they all recognized both traits. There was a politeness, but also a strength, uh, in her. And it, I don't think it's gender related, frankly. I, I mean, I saw the same traits in, uh, justice Powell, uh, Louis Powell, who was this, uh, Southern Richmond, Virginia, uh, very polite, um, I guess in those days, you say Southern gentleman, uh, um, but a real strength to him and his character. And they were very, they, they would compare that them, um, and those character traits that, uh, they utilized and, uh, but not, not in a, uh, you know, I mean, they utilized them naturally. They were just, they were naturals at, uh, building relationships, friendships, um, and I think both were kind of based in, um, uh, a softness and a strength, uh, at the same time.

Speaker 1: 16:30

Tell us about her, her sense of humor.

Speaker 2: 16:35

Oh, she was very funny. Um, and, uh, you had to pay close attention because she was very soft spoken, but she had some great zingers, uh, that she would, uh, come up with. And, uh, we had, uh,<laugh>, my favorite story was we were, uh, in the, uh, dress rehearsal for the inauguration. It was, uh, president Bill Clinton's second inaugural. Um, and I guess that would've been 96 when I first started, uh, working in Chief Justice Rick's office, because it was, uh, Clinton's second inauguration. I think that was 96. And anyway, uh, justice Chief Justice Rehnquist had already, um, gone through one with Justice, uh, uh, president Clinton in 92. And President Clinton had already done it once before, so neither of them needed to go to the dress rehearsal for the 96 inauguration. Um, so I was a stand in for Chief Justice Rehnquist and Terry McCullough, who worked for, uh, president Clinton and subsequently became governor of Virginia and may have even dabbled with the presidential, uh, flirted with the presidential run of his own. But anyway, he, he was a standin for President Clinton. I was a standin for Chief Justice Rehnquist, uh, vice President Gore, uh, had requested that, uh, Ruth Ginsburg, justice Ginsburg, uh, give, uh, him the oath of office at the inauguration. And so she went to the dress rehearsal, uh, with me and, um, uh, Terry McCullough, and I forgot who was at Stand in for Vice President Gore at the dress rehearsal. But in any event, they, um, had built a, uh, a little, uh, step stool for Justice Ginsburg to stand on, because she was short, much shorter than, um, uh, vice President Gore. And, uh, so she was<laugh> in the dress rehearsal. She got up on the step stool, uh, which was to make her the same height as Vice President Gore to administer the oath of office. And the step stool was really quite, uh, high<laugh>. So she got on, on top of it, and it was really too far, too, it was built up too high. And she looked at me and she said, they must have thought I was Dr. Ruth, who was even a, uh, a shorter, uh, person at the time, uh, a well known personality. It was very, very short, shorter than Justice Ginsburg<laugh><laugh>. So she had a great sense of humor.

Speaker 1: 19:37

Thank you for sharing that story. That's fantastic. Um, I think one, one of the things that many in the legal profession and outside the legal profession struggle with is the pursuit of a meaningful career, while also experiencing the fullness of family life. It often feels like a very delicate balance, and that it's easy for the scales to tip in favor of the career, which, um, asks so much from so many of us. And one of the things that I've always been intrigued by is how it seems like she gave everything to the pro, the wonderful, exquisite profession of law, gave us all more than we deserved of herself, and yet she had a lifetime of what, by all accounts, was a very healthy marriage and raised wonderful children with her husband, Marty and I, and I imagine all of the listeners of the podcast would love to know your observation of how she found balance in her life.

Speaker 2: 21:09

Well, she was, uh, a, a phenomenal person with, uh, an an enormous energy, uh, and strength that we've talked about, uh, and stamina. And, um, she managed, um, her time, uh, in, in ways that I don't know when, you know, she slept, but, uh, um, she did have a balance in her life. And, um, and she would tell all of you, uh, if she were talking, uh, about it, she would give a great credit to Marty her husband for so many years because he, uh, in part because, uh, he did all the cooking at home, uh, and that was a mutual agreement,<laugh> on their part. He was a great cook. Um, and that, that helped, uh, helped her with the balance a bit. Um, but it was more, uh, than that, of course. I mean, she, uh, uh, was able to, to focus on so many different things at, at one time. She was a, um, remarkable person. And, uh, there were, you know, she was a very, very, her family meant, uh, meant very much to her. So, uh, she made it work.

Speaker 1: 22:44

Um, one of the, uh, I hope you'll forgive me for asking you a question that we have not previously talked about, but I'm guessing you'll have some wonderful observations on this. Um, on the night that she passed, it was, um, it was very noteworthy to me how distraught that those in my inner circle were from my 18 year old daughter who, um, is a freshman in college to senior partners who are, you know, nearing the twilight of their careers and how she impacted so many generations. Um, because the common thread of respect and admiration, how it ran from the young to the very old, how it ran from the far left to the far right, how it ran between without regard to gender. And that's just nearly unheard of in an individual. And I would, as someone who called her friend, as you did, I would be interested in your thoughts on those of us, um, listening to the podcast right now, who want to honor her legacy, who want to live our lives in a way that would honor justice Ginsburg's legacy. What do you think she would tell us if she were here to answer that question?

Speaker 2: 24:35

I think she'd, uh, thank you for asking that. And it was eloquently put, um, as to her impact on people, um, of all ages, all gender, all, all walks, um, all political viewpoints. I think she would, uh, say be strong. I mean, I, I I know that, uh, she would sign, uh, notes and letters, uh, and, and even books, uh, uh, written about her that she, uh, would autograph. It was a, um, um, a phrase that she would use. I, I think it, uh, the messages that, that she would, uh, convey is that you're gonna, as she did, as she encountered in her career, you're gonna hit obstacles, you're gonna hit challenges, but you have to be strong. You have to work through them. You don't, don't use'em as an excuse not to accomplish, uh, use'em as a motivation to, uh, uh, to to do more and to work through them and overcome them as she did. And, um, I think that would be, I mean, I, I'm, I'm not saying it as well as she would, but, um, I think that that's the message of her remarkable career and her remarkable life as, uh, uh, you know, she, she was, she was strong. Uh, and, uh, as we've said before, you know, by outward appearances, you, you wouldn't, that wouldn't be your first impression. But wow. I mean, look at what accomplished and what she did. Uh, she had to be strong.

Speaker 1: 26:35

Wow. Two really powerful words. I did not know that. I did not know that that was, um, how she often signed off on letters. Thank you so much Mr. Duff with, for being with us today to, to share your observations on Justice Ginsburg. Thank you so much to the, a Women's Leadership Council for honoring Justice Ginsburg's legacy by hosting this podcast. And, um, I think it fitting to sign off as Justice Ginsburg might sign off. Be strong

Speaker 2: 27:16

<laugh>. Thank you very much, Christie. I appreciate you asking me to join you today.