This special series highlights AHLA leaders who discuss key moments in their careers, current and future trends in health law, and AHLA’s role in their professional development. In this episode, Chip Hutzler, Director, Horne LLP, interviews Craig Holden, Partner, Baker Donelson, who is AHLA President for the 2020-2021 year. Craig talks about his long career in health law, how the industry will develop after the pandemic, and advice he would give to young health law professionals.
Craig also tells Chip:
Sponsored by Horne LLP.
To learn more about AHLA and the educational resources available to the health law community, visit americanhealthlaw.org.
This special series highlights AHLA leaders who discuss key moments in their careers, current and future trends in health law, and AHLA’s role in their professional development. In this episode, Chip Hutzler, Director, Horne LLP, interviews Craig Holden, Partner, Baker Donelson, who is AHLA President for the 2020-2021 year. Craig talks about his long career in health law, how the industry will develop after the pandemic, and advice he would give to young health law professionals.
Craig also tells Chip:
Sponsored by Horne LLP.
To learn more about AHLA and the educational resources available to the health law community, visit americanhealthlaw.org.
In this special series, A H L A, leaders discuss key moments in their careers, current and future trends in health law, and ALA's role in their professional development support for A H L A. And this series is provided by horn, which provides proactive guidance and strategies to enhance efficiency, improve patient experience, increase market share, and position you for greater success. Horn Healthcare serves over 600 clients across 31 states. For more information, visit horn llp.com.
Speaker 2:This is Chip Husler. I'm a director with the firm Horn in their healthcare team.
Speaker 3:My guest today is Craig Holden. Craig is a partner with Baker Donaldson, and, um, also the current president of A H L A. And that's for the 2020 year. It's about to end, but we're really glad to have Craig before, just before he gets out the door to talk with us. And Craig, um, let me start by asking you how you got into healthcare. How did you get into health law?
Speaker 4:Um, thanks, chip. Um, and first thank you for, uh, asking me to do this. Um, and I, uh, I, I look forward to our discussion. The, the story of how I got into health law is, uh, frankly, a bit embarrassingly random. Um, I went to law school in the late seventies. Uh, I graduated from law school in 1980. Um, at that time, there were no health law programs in law schools, health laws, a a defined practice area really had not come into being in any sort of meaningful way. Uh, I took one healthcare related course in law school, something called Medicine in the Law, which was really focused on, uh, medical malpractice issues. Uh, nothing on, on regulations, certainly nothing on fraud and abuse, because if you look at history, for the most part, those laws simply didn't exist at the time. Um, so coming out of law school health law was certainly not a focus for me. Um, I had intended to go into the area of labor and employment law, and, and therein lies the tale of how I became a healthcare lawyer. I joined a, a small, fairly prestigious health or, uh, labor law boutique, uh, in Washington, um, where we had a booming practice doing a lot of, uh, N L R B work, uh, with unions doing a lot of OSHA work. Uh, we did a lot of E E O C work, plus general employment work. And it was a small firm, and it was very, very busy. And I joined that firm in August of 1980. In January of 1981, Ronald Reagan was inaugurated. And, and shortly following his inauguration, every federal regulatory agency that we dealt with began to pull back. By June, the OSHA docket was gone. The agency had simply folded its tent on every case. They had, uh, the E E O C stopped bringing cases, um, in terms of N L R B work. Labor unions got very, very quiet during that time period. And what had been a booming practice got very, very quiet. And, and that quiet was not unique to my firm. Uh, it was in the Washington dc uh, legal market generally. Fortunately, I was involved in a very large Department of Labor case where, uh, I stayed busy for many months beyond that, uh, a little over a year. But things started to grind down. And, uh, initially two of the partners and I looked to move to another firm as a group. Uh, the legal market was dead, as I say. So that was not going well. Um, so I began to look for a job solo. And at this time, uh, our first child is on the way. Um, and I'm quite worried about where things are going. Um, and I had dinner. My wife and I had dinner with the law school classmate of mine, Abby Cummings, who at that point was working at H H s, and I had dinner with her, and I told her my tale of Whoa. And she said, well, that's really interesting because I'm in this new creation called the Inspector General Division at the Office of General Counsel at H H S, and there's this new civil Money penalty law, and we're hiring people who have administrative litigation experiences. Well, that's, that's what I've been doing for the last several years. So, sure. So I go in and I, I get an interview, uh, through her good graces and, uh, with Harvey Am Polsky, who was the, basically the first council to the ig. And I was hired, and this was marvelous. Um, I asked them if they would meet my key criteria at that point, uh, with, with a mortgage and a child on the way. And that was, would they pay me on a regular basis? And they said that they would. So I accepted the job, showed up knowing nothing of health law, knowing nothing of Medicare. And my first day on the job, I literally was reading those little pamphlets you get in the, uh, social Security office. These are your Medicare Part A benefits, these are your Medicare Part B benefits. And until that point, I had no idea there were parts to Medicare. But that was my, my grand, uh, plan to become a healthcare lawyer. I, I wish I could tell you that I had this well focused plan that I brilliantly executed to become a health lawyer, but I basically fell into it out of necessity. Um,
Speaker 3:So was there a key moment later on in your health law career that kind of made you realize, Hey, I landed in the right place. Now I'm not wondering, am I in the right place? I am here. What was that? What have been some key moments like that, or one or two in your career?
Speaker 4:Um, I, I don't know what I can tell you a specific moment, but I, uh, I, I can tell you that that office I went into, um, was just the most marvelous incubator for healthcare lawyers. Um, Lou Morris and I started within a few weeks of each other, Lou, who ultimately became counsel to the Inspector General. Um, and it was a small office. I think I might have been lawyer number 10 or nine. And because it was such a small office, and because we were in such a, a dynamic growth period, um, I could put my finger on a lot of different things. We were, we were too small to have a lot of specialization. Uh, I did litigation. I was a special assistant, US attorney, did some criminal stuff. Um, I acted as the igs basically lobbyist on what became the Patient Program Protection Act of 87. Um, and, you know, just got thrown into things where I got to learn all this new stuff and I could just run with it e even though I was not particularly experienced, well, no one else was either. So I, I was like, this is the greatest thing ever because this, this whole new growing field, and I'm kind of in on it, uh, on the ground floor. So it was a, just a marvelous experience
Speaker 3:For me. That that sounds great. Was there any people that inspired you along the way that you feel like you look back and say, those were the, you know, those were some of the reasons I I did this or kept going? What made them special? If there are any?
Speaker 4:Um, you know, that's a good question and I'll, I'll, I'll break it into two categories. Um, Herby and Polsky, who was, uh, basically my boss was someone who was very supportive and would let me just run with things. And, you know, that was, uh, just a tremendous opportunity to be involved in a lot of various policy, uh, aspects and, you know, colleagues around me who were peers like, like Lou were marvelous to work with. And then when it, it came time that I decided I wanted to, to try my hand at private practice, I, I had the benefit of having been on the other side of most of the name healthcare lawyers who were around, uh, at that time, and I knew them well and was looking for the right firm to go to. And a, as I looked and wanted to come out, I, I knew based on that, which firms I was interested in. Um, and I had offers from, from several, one of them being OB Kahler. Um, as I tell people, um, my, my time at the government gave me a, an uncontrollable urge to go with the lowest bidder. So I went to ob Caler<laugh>, and I, I did that, um, because of the people there. Uh, you know, there were a number, I, I guess most notably Len Homer and Sandy Olitsky, uh, you know, Len being one of the real founding fathers of the practice of health law. And, and both of them were a tremendous opportunity, uh, and, and mentors to me in the sense that I got access to a fascinating client base. And, and much like Harvey had, I, uh, I was given, uh, the leeway to run while knowing that if I needed support or advice, I could always go to them. Uh, which was just a, a, a wonderful thing. Uh, yeah. I will tell you one story of Leonard, uh, that I've learned that many people who worked for Leonard had was when I received my first assignment from him, which was probably a week into my tenure, was a subpoena from, uh, from the government to a hospital client. And he handed it to me and he said, I want you to handle this. And I looked at it and I said, well, so what are you thinking? What, how should we approach this? And he looked at me and said, don't mess it up. Actually, that's not an exact quote. Um,<laugh> now get outta my office, because that was him. He wanted you to handle things on your own and work it out. And if you could, could do that, he was just a tremendous mentor because you could always go talk to him. Um, and he always had your back, but he didn't micromanage you. So it's just, just a wonderful experience.
Speaker 3:That's great. I was gonna ask you about challenges you faced and how you overcame them. That sounds like one of them. Do you have any other challenges you faced that you think, um, were significant that, but that you were able to overcome? And how, how'd you do it?
Speaker 4:Well, you know, the challenges were just, and, and candidly I view them less, it's challenges, then opportunities, um, because I, you know, because we didn't have a lot of of narrow experts at, at that point, we were all still sort of health law generalists in many ways. I got to handle all kinds of different things, um, going forward. And, you know, was, was given access. And part of my comment regarding Leonard and Sandy and others was able to, and, and I suppose this is a challenge, but when I enjoyed, I was meeting with, you know, fortune, fortune 50 CEOs on my own at, at an early stage. Um, and as, as you may have noticed, I, I don't have too much trouble talking. Um, and, you know, I, I was just able to get those opportunities and run with them.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we share that, we share that fun of talking a lot. Um, and, and I've had the same experience that, uh, when you, when you get in that position, um, that often serves you well. So do you have any sort of outlook on where you think health law's going? You've been the president of H L L A for the last year, obviously it's been a very challenging time, but also at the same time a lot of regulations have come out and so on. Where do you see health well going as we head off into the new normal sort of post pandemic?
Speaker 4:Um, I, it's, it's a very good question. Um, I, I think what we are going to see is continued development and importance of health law. I don't think that, uh, issues of health law are going to go away or be diminished quite the contrary. I, I think the pandemic has done, uh, a number of things, uh, some good, most not. Um, it has shown us the importance of public health, and it has shown us the perils of having healthcare coverage tied to employment. And I think we are going to see, uh, a lot of development in that area. I think we're gonna see growth in, uh, in, in certainly proposals, uh, relating to more and more public funding of healthcare. The more healthcare is publicly funded, the more regulatory overlay that will be on that. And I, I anticipate this being a, a major growth at time for the field of health law.
Speaker 3:That's, that's great. So one of the great things about being active in H L A as we both are, is you get to go to some fun places. Uh, Baltimore is a certainly a key place for healthcare with C M s and obviously Washington being right there. But what are your favorite places to go when you're out there doing health law that are not right in your backyard?
Speaker 4:Um, well, I have a lot of them. Um, I haven't seen any of them for a number of months.
Speaker 3:Me neither.
Speaker 4:<laugh>. Um, and I've had the benefit of, of, in my, in my practice, traveling all over the, um, but
Speaker 3:We can dream right now for a little bit since we've been, been away from it all for a little
Speaker 4:While. Well, it, you know, the practice is a national one. I, I think, you know, my favorite city where I've had a number of cases over the years, San Francisco, um, love San Francisco, love New Orleans, love Phoenix. Uh, I love Vegas in small doses,
Speaker 3:<laugh>, um,
Speaker 4:Three days pops. That's all I can do. Um, and I've actually had the opportunity to go to all those places from, uh, you know, professional capacity. You know, I probably, the, the town I've spent the most time in, in a professional capacity due to representation is Nashville. Uh, for obvious reasons. It is, is, uh, the source of, uh, a large, uh, percentage of, of the healthcare community in this country. So I've spent a lot of time there. It is a, it is a booming city. I I know my firm has just moved to new offices there. I hope to actually get to them eventually. Uh, but I love all those cities, and I've been, I've been very fortunate in my career to be able, uh, to travel to many of them. I have a few I can't stand going to, but I won't name
Speaker 3:Them<laugh>. Uh, I didn't wanna go there, but, uh, yeah, I imagine there's a few. Um, so Craig, when you think about h l a, we have a lot of new health lawyers that have come in over the years since you started, um, more than we can count. What do you say to them, the ones there that either wanna be leaders or that you see as future leaders? What do you recommend they do, um, when they think about this? What wisdom can you give them from your time as, as a leader that would help them?
Speaker 4:Um, well, I'll, I'll come at that, uh, a couple of ways. Um, one, what advice would I give them just as, as health law professionals anyway, um, would be to be flexible. I, I think if my story, uh, tells you anything, it's that you need to be flexible and adapt to the opportunities that present themselves. And second, that as, as new regulatory schemes come out, try and become the subject matter expert on them. That's what I did with Stark when it came out. Um, and, and you make yourself very valuable. And then flowing that into the question of a H L A, um, you know, the short and simple answer is to get involved and, you know, give of yourself self share, uh, share the expertise you've gained, take the opportunities to speak, to write, um, to be very active in a practice group. Um, and to connect with your fellow members of A H L A and just be mindful as leadership opportunities present themselves. They're obviously the formal avenues through, uh, the call for speakers, call for leaders and all of that. But also a lot of it is, is networking and getting to know people. And I urge you to do that if you're a, a, a young health law professional and, you know, perhaps a, a view that's, that's considered old-fashioned these days, but do it in person. Anytime you get the chance, social media is fine, zoom is fine, but none of that takes the place of showing up at in-person conferences and meeting people. Um, and that is where the opportunities for you to give back to H L A will present themselves.
Speaker 3:So when they induct you into the Health Lawyer Hall of Fame as a rockstar that you are, what will your plaque on the wall say?
Speaker 4:Um, well, I don't know if I'm gonna be inducted into that, but that that would be lovely.
Speaker 3:Um, I'm inducting, I'm, it's, it's a, it's a hall of fame. I've started and I've decided that if your president of h l A and and did that, you've, your contribution's significant enough, you, you're probably gonna belong there.
Speaker 4:Well, that's, that's very kind. Um, I guess two things. Um, one, uh, it would be nice to be remembered for having a great deal of subject matter expertise that I was willing to share with my colleagues, mostly through a H L A. Um, I think all of us in the profession have an obligation to do that. And h l a has been a marvelous vehicle that has allowed me to do that. Um, the other piece, and I'll, I'll wear my, my fraud and abuse defense hat is that I would like to be seen as someone who very zealously advocated for their clients, uh, but did so in a way that, uh, was candid and respectful of my opponents. Um, I, I worry that we, we as a, as a profession are, are losing the ability to disagree without being disagreeable. And I've tried to avoid that.
Speaker 3:Can't say it any better than that. Craig Holden, thank you for joining us today. Really great to have you with us. We appreciate it. Great talking to you.
Speaker 4:Great talking to you, chip. Thanks.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening. If you enjoy this episode, be sure to subscribe to a H L A speaking of health law, wherever you get your podcasts. To learn more about a H L A and the educational resources available to the health law community, visit American Health law.org.