AHLA's Speaking of Health Law
AHLA's Speaking of Health Law
Fraud and Abuse: Career Journeys to Compliance
In this episode of AHLA's monthly series on fraud and abuse issues, Matthew Wetzel, Partner, Goodwin Procter, speaks to Jessica Pill, Vice President and Chief Compliance Officer, Boston Scientific Corporation, about her unique path to compliance, what a typical day looks like, the toughest part of the job, and the role of mentorship in her career. They also discuss how compliance spans different academic and technical disciplines, the role of compliance in the health care industry, and how to get started in the compliance field. From AHLA's Fraud and Abuse Practice Group. Sponsored by BRG.
Listen to the August 2021 episode, which discusses career journeys to public service.
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Speaker 2:Good morning, good evening, good afternoon, and welcome to the American Health Law Associations Fraud and Abuse podcast. And I'm your host, Matt Wetzel. This edition of the podcast focuses on career journeys to compliance. Compliance officers serve on the front lines of our clients. They help steer and guide the business through risky waters, making sure complicated regulations are met, and ensuring that an effective means of internal controls is in place, all the while expected to prevent bad behavior, foster a culture of ethics and integrity, and serve as a role model for others. Healthcare compliance officers are also a core part of the American Health Law Association. As many of our listeners know, we're no longer just focused on lawyers, but the broader range of professionals who work in health law and in regulation. And there seems to be a much greater interest among the younger generations, those folks coming up in the ranks who wanna understand the compliance profession. In fact, I've been approached by several law students in the past few months who have expressed an interest in understanding how to become a compliance officer. What do you do to get there? What paths should they follow? What challenges can someone expect? Our guests today can offer unmatched and unparalleled perspective on the journey to compliance, Jessica Pill is Vice President and Chief Compliance Officer of Boston Scientific Corporation, a global medical device and medical technology maker. Jessica went from internal investigations to compliance officer, and now she's even finishing her. Jd. Uh, we're gonna talk with her today about her unique path to compliance, her decision to pursue a JD after many years of great success. And we're gonna talk with her about mentoring and what do you need to do to position yourself for a compliance position. She also happens to be a former colleague of mine, not to mention a boss, mentor, and friend of mine as well. Jessica, welcome. So I thought, you know, it might be great for us to start with you kind of taking us back and, and telling us your story, your compliance journey. How did you get to, um, the c c O chair at Boston Scientific?
Speaker 3:Great. Well, thank you Matt, and thanks for having me today. Um, I will start by saying the path is windy. Um, and certainly not something that I would have said, uh, where I would've landed. Um, happily I have, but, uh, certainly not in my, uh, early days. Um, you know, college, you know, starting there, I wasn't thinking, gosh, I'd like to be a compliance officer. And candidly, you know, uh, at that time, compliance was really more in its infancy. So it wasn't even something that you could sort of dream to or aspire to or want to do earlier on. So that's changed a lot, and I'm sure we'll talk about that. But, um, when I was in college, I thought I would go to law school. Um, I took the LSATs, I interned at a, um, a law firm in Boston, and I just loved it. Um, thought that was it. I was very, uh, very focused on that. And then my, uh, you know, my, my mom at the time really encouraged me to go abroad. And I thought, well, I'll just go for a semester cause I don't wanna kind of mess up my path to law school. And she said, no, no, no, if you go, you have to go for a whole year. Um, and so we sort of had this dance, uh, of her saying, Nope, I'm not gonna support you if you don't go for a year. And me saying, but it's gonna impact my law school, uh, journey. And ultimately she won, as parents often do. And I went to Ireland for a year. And why that's important is one, you know, it's great to have international experience, and that's important thing ultimately in being in compliance for a lot of, uh, companies and a lot of industries. Um, but it also sparked, uh, the love of being, uh, abroad. And so instead of going to law school, talk about a change in journey, I ended up going to London right after college, and I did a master's there in regulation. And that was actually in law, economics and politics. So I still had a little bit of the law in there, uh, but I bra I branched out. Um, and really truly, I was joking actually with my daughter the other day that, you know, it was an important, um, degree. I learned a lot. But really, I, I, I wanted a mechanism to live in London. So<laugh>, um, I, uh, I, I, uh, I had a great time at school, but I really had a great time living in London. Um, so from there, you know, I actually picked up the thread that I loved more of the quantitative side and the economics. And so I left sort of my law path and pursued an economics path. And I came back to the us. I worked for a small economics consulting firm, um, doing, you know, studies for towns and, and some litigation support where I was doing some quantitative analysis for, uh, you know, business disruption or other types of, uh, business and, and personal injury disputes. And from there I thought, well, this is really interesting. It still was sort of on the periphery of law, uh, working with attorneys in these cases. And I thought, well, I'll go to sort of a bigger place to do similar things. So I left that small, uh, consulting firm and went to Pricewater House Coopers, and I was in their dispute analysis and investigations group. Um, and from there I did a myriad of things, uh, some actually environmental consulting. I did some litigation support still. And then I also really started focusing, focusing in on investigations. And this is really the, the start of my journey, I would say, truly on a path to compliance. Um, so we worked for a lot of companies, um, doing investigations at the time. Um, you know, there were, you know, stock option backdating, all the Enron, lots of out external email review. Um, also, um, you know, F C P A, uh, investigations. And so I worked for a lot of different industries, um, including healthcare. And, and ultimately decided after about 11 years at PWC that I really wanted to specialize in an industry. So I still wasn't thinking compliance candidly, right? Right. At that point, it was more, what do I like to do? Uh, what is the work I like to do? And then what is the industry that I'm interested in doing that work in? And that's where, uh, one of our clients was actually Boston Scientific, and they had a job for a director of investigations. That's what I had been doing at PWC for many years. At that point, I ha had also gone back to school and gotten my, uh, c p A and a master's in accounting. And I decided, well, you know what? This, this is the industry where I wanna be, so I'm gonna take the leap. And I started at, um, Boston Scientific about 10 and a half years ago in that role. Um, at the time, BSE was just expanding, uh, their compliance program. So even though I was being hired into the compliance department, it was still a very skeletal, uh, department. Um, we had people doing compliance traditional work, but in lots of different functions at the time. And our former chief compliance officer, uh, Matt, whom you know well, uh, who's an amazing person, uh, and also an amazing, uh, compliance leader, uh, she was bringing all of those threads together in one department. And so I was, uh, lucky enough to start in that department, sort of in its infancy and also concurrently with that company, uh, Boston Scientific, um, getting a corporate integrity agreement, which is often the impetus for a lot of, uh, really accelerated growth, right? Right. In compliance. And so that's how I found myself in compliance. But again, I really wasn't thinking compliance. I was thinking industry and what it is that I like to do every day. Um, and that's, that's how I found myself here.
Speaker 2:Wow. That is a, that's a great story. And Jessica, I've known you for quite some time, I think 10 and a half years now.
Speaker 3:Yes. That you,
Speaker 2:Uh, point that out. Uh, and I hadn't realized, um, your background in economics. Yes. And, um, do you find that, that having that background, um, either, you know, gives you an advantage or is it something that you use on a regular basis in the course of your work?
Speaker 3:Sure. Well, um, you know, I think that compliance, um, generally, and this is definitely a generalization, but it, it sort of spans different types of, uh, academic, um, and, you know, technical backgrounds. Legal is certainly one of them. That's a major, uh, background. Um, you know, controls economics, accounting is another major background, and that tends to skew into like the account, the, uh, auditing and monitoring roles and other types of controls type of work in, uh, compliance. And then also project management is another really important, um, skillset because we're often doing a lot of sort of operational, uh, type of work. Um, and then there's also a lot of sort of training communication. So depending on your sort of interest and discipline, there's a space for you. Um, and I'm, I'm sure I'm not even listing many others, but, um, you know, so finance for example. But, um, but I think, so to answer your question, Matt, I think that it does help me, um, because I do have a controls sort of mindset and a lot of, uh, compliance, if you think about sort of the compliance wheel, it's, uh, you know, prevent, detect and respond, you know, kind of across the wheel and economics, accounting controls. Um, that helps a lot in, uh, the detection in particular. Um, and also, uh, the prevention and response. But I think, you know, knowing where, you know, uh, the, how the systems work and where the key key points of control have helped me a lot, uh, having that, uh, discipline. But it's not, it's not necessary. I mean, you, you could certainly, and there are many people, yourself included, who come at it from other expertise. Um, but cer it certainly has helped.
Speaker 2:It's interesting you say that. So you, you think of compliance in that wheel shape. Yes. And I, you know, maybe I'm focused more on controls, cuz I tend to think of like the scales of justice. Like if you've got risk on one side mm-hmm.<affirmative>, you need to balance that out with controls on another. And, you know, perhaps that's from my own, you know, law background mm-hmm.<affirmative>. Um, but, uh, but I think what you say about internal controls and sort of approaching from the different, you know, sort of functional responsibilities is an interesting view, interesting perspective. Now, you mentioned also Jessica, that you had kind of been focused on, you know, not just necessarily the substance of the work, but your industry mm-hmm.<affirmative>, how did you choose the medical technology industry as sort of the place for you?
Speaker 3:Yeah. I, I think industry's really important sort of in your calculus as you're thinking about where you want to, um, um, spend your compliance time and, and you can do multiple industries. And I think that would help, you know, have a really interesting, you know, uh, bright career, um, as well, depending on when you get into compliance mm-hmm.<affirmative>, you get into it very early. You have sort of more track in your career. Um, but there's different types of risk depending on what industry you're in. So for me, um, it was just sort of, you know, when I did a lot of consulting, I had the, the privilege of working across industries. And while I thought there was interesting things in each of the industries, healthcare for me, because it is human, it's, it's about getting products to patients. It's about, you know, helping them in their healthcare journey sometimes, which is very acute and tragic. Uh, and, and a device in our case, um, or some intervention can really change the course of that person's li person's life, including, you know, being alive. Um, that mission was really resonated with me. Um, so that was important, but also the type of risk that we're dealing with. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> also was very, uh, interesting to me. Um, so, you know, for example, in banking there's a lot about know your customer and, um, anti-money laundering and very financial, uh, focus and controls, um, in healthcare, when you're applying similar controls, uh, in terms of the compliance framework, um, and laws. It's about, um, how our, um, customers, which are healthcare providers are interacting with our patients, you know, patients. And so that sort of human element, uh, I really enjoyed. So that was part of the reason why I was, uh, very interested in healthcare.
Speaker 2:Uh, you know, it's, it's interesting you say that as it w uh, obviously we're the American Health Law Association, and so the compliance officers and compliance professionals we have in our con constituency mm-hmm.<affirmative>, um, I would imagine most probably field that same drive, that same sense of mission mm-hmm.<affirmative>. And, um, I think that's a, I think that's a really important piece that oftentimes perhaps younger professionals might not be focused so much on. They might be focused more on sort of the function of the job and what does it look like day-to-day versus what's the broader impact.
Speaker 3:Right. I think the broader impact is, is, is actually ultimately, you know, a lot of the, you know, writings about, um, being happy in your job, it's a lot about purpose. And so really kind of, um, finding a purpose of it in an organization that you really believe in align to, I think is, is critical as you think about your compliance journey. And, and maybe not, you know, in that first or second job, but as you really lock into where you wanna grow your, uh, you know, depth of expertise, it's something to consider.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Absolutely. I, you know, I want to kind of switch gears just a little bit. I, you know, for those folks who are listening who don't know Jessica, she's had quite a career, quite a successful career. And, um, just in the past few years, you made the decision to go back to school to get your jd. What drove you to do that?
Speaker 3:Insanity? No, just kidding.
Speaker 2:<laugh>.
Speaker 3:But most days that's how it feels. Um, so let's see, as I talked about, you know, when I was in college, I thought I was gonna be a lawyer. So it's always been, um, sort of that little voice on my shoulder mm-hmm.<affirmative>, and I've always worked with attorneys. I really love, um, analyzing information, and that's a core skillset, um, of attorneys, uh, reading, digesting, you know, breadth of, of information and then synthesizing it and sort of giving an opinion or advice or steering a decision. So that skillset, again, I'm very focused on skillsets in terms of what do I like to do every day? You know, when I'm hiring someone, I say to them, you know, this is what the job looks like. This is, you know, the title's great, but when you come into work every day, this is what you're actually gonna be doing. Will you be happy doing that work? So when I think about the type of work lawyers do, it's something I, I have done, you know, peripherally in my career, and I knew it was something that I would like to get the real expertise and, and incorporate, uh, professionally. So, um, you know, part of it is timing and opportunity as well. So, because I always thought and wanted to go to law school, I had the pleasure of working with our prior, uh, general counsel, Desiree Ross Morrison. And as we were talking about my career, she really said to me, well, you know, what about, what about the law? And I said, well, you know, I've thought about it for a while. It's come up a few times, you know, many times. And I don't know, I'm not sure I could really incorporate that into, you know, everything that's currently on my plate. And she said, well, but if you really wanna do it, like, let's see if we can make it work. And ultimately, um, her nudging, um, and, um, my desire sort of, uh, you know, helped propel, um, this decision. And, and so I went, I went back to school. It's part-time. It's a four year program. I finished three years and I have one year left. And Wow. Uh, most days I'm glad I did it. Some days, maybe not so much, but, uh, it's really about rounding out for me, um, the part of the, um, the work that, again, I, I do a little bit on the periphery, but I'd like to have sort of the ability to do it in the primary way. And so I'm excited. It's, it's been a cool thing to, to be exposed to. And, uh, you know, law school is a beast,<laugh>, so for everyone who's done it, hats off. You know, it's, uh, it's an experience for sure, but it, it's been a lot of fun.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And I, um, you know, I think that your sort of willingness to evaluate your life and reevaluate your life, um, is the mark of, you know, somebody who's very thoughtful and very conscientious about what it is that you're doing. You know, it's not just, you know, a function for you, it's a calling. Do you think the JD is necessary to be a compliance officer?
Speaker 3:Um, it's a great question. I do not, uh, largely because, uh, one, I'm a compliance officer and I do not have a jd, um,<laugh>. So proof in the, in the, uh, in my, in myself as an example. But I also know,
Speaker 2:And by the way, a really very good compliance officer too, I might
Speaker 3:Add. Thank you, Matt. I appreciate the, uh, the plug. Um, so I know obviously a ton of compliance officers, I have the pleasure of networking, uh, with many and, um, many our lawyers, many of them are not. And the knot is, you know, again, that range of skills I was talking about previously. Um, but, um, so I, I do think it's not, it's not necessary. I do think you can be a compliance officer without it. However, I will say a lot of compliance departments are set up where the, um, head of compliance and head of what I'll say is legal compliance, sort of that, uh, interpretation mm-hmm.<affirmative> of the law. Um, and the actual lawyering that comes with compliance are one and the same. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. And in my company, those are split. So I can, my job, I can run the compliance program. And then we have other people, uh, who run the, the legal side of compliance. And so I have the, the benefit of that. Um, and we all ultimately report into the general counsel, but in some instances, in some companies, that's one and the same. So in those, if you want sort of more opportunity, candidly, um, having the law degree will help you because in some cases, that is actually a prerequisite for the position
Speaker 2:In, in other words, it's not a necessary, um, you know, requirement, but it certainly allows you to expand and grow in whatever direction you want. If you were to have the
Speaker 3:Jd Exactly. You're not as limited, because as a jd, you can do the programmatic work, but as a non jd, you can't do the legal work, of course. Right? Absolutely. So it just gives you more breath.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, absolutely. Kind of switching gears a little bit and thinking kind of about the nuts and bolts of compliance mm-hmm.<affirmative>, demystify it for us. Jessica, what's your day like? What's your average day like?
Speaker 3:Oh my goodness. Well, there is
Speaker 2:Such a thing.
Speaker 3:<laugh>. Yeah, I was gonna say, lemme start by saying no day is the same. Um, there is, I think, you know, depends on what company you're in, and sort of what does that look like? So, Boston Scientific, obviously international company, um, many countries where we operate. So I think my day, uh, often starts early and ends late. You know, last night I finished, um, a call with, uh, Singapore, you know, at eight 30, because of course, time changes, you've gotta, um, adjust. We all take the, take the hit, you know, sometimes it's late for me and early for them and vice versa. So there's a lot of juggling that. But in terms of a, a day, you know, what, what are the types of things I do? Um, a lot of it is, um, sort of problem solving, which I love. Again, I, I always think about, about skillsets as we were just talking about. So while no issue is genuinely the same because it deals with different people, or it deals with a different process, um, it's, it's often my job is about, you know, asking why, you know, why did that happen? Who is involved? Um, how did it happen? You know, how, who do we bring together to sort of decide what to do next? Um, it's also, so there's that analysis. There's also a lot of, um, strategy and planning. So in compliance, a lot of times you're doing things for the very first time mm-hmm.<affirmative>. So if you wanna do, you know, on a train, on a particular topic, for example, it's very hard to find something off the shelf that actually fits what you need. So it's creating, well, who's the audience? What are we trying to say? How can we say it? So it's interesting, how do we want, you know, how can people, uh, how do we want people to engage with this, this material. A lot of writing, a lot of policies, um, a lot of, you know, investigation reports, for example, I present, uh, to the board every quarter. So I wanna think about risk and, you know, from an enterprise standpoint, and analyze that information to be able to talk to that audience and give them a picture of what's happening within the program. So I'm giving you examples, um, as opposed to what a normal day is, because I have to tell you, it really is not a normal day. And Matt, you've been a compliance officer, so you know that very well. Um, but, you know, it's engaging with the business, understanding where we're trying to go as a business, and try to figure out how to help that path, um, and avoid missteps, you know, wherever we can. Um, and I will also say a compliance officer job is very much, and, uh, this comes from Jean, uh, Jean Lance who was, uh, Matt and, uh, my, uh, chief Compliance Officer at Boston Scientific, you know, great mentor, amazing person. Um, she always said, you know, compliance, you're a player coach. And I didn't even know what that meant when I first started mm-hmm.<affirmative>. But, um, as a coach, obviously I'm there to guide the team, set the strategy, you know, help problem solve, you know, escalation, all of that. But I'm very much a player as well. You know, I am reading documents, I'm editing documents, I'm looking at training scripts. I'm, you know, trying to, uh, synthesize data and, and information. So really, your hands are in the weeds. And your, you're doing a lot of work in addition to leading, uh, the team.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Absolutely. And, you know, um, what you just described, Jessica, and I didn't need to put you on the spot by asking you that question with no answer. Um, you know, it sounds like with all the moving parts, you know, the various cogs in the, you know, in the day, uh, you know, you've gotta turn your brain on from, you know, sort of the analytical standpoint, then you have to go into a, you know, more of a, you know, sort of fact-based and, you know, process-based view of whatever it is that you're doing. What's the toughest part of the job?
Speaker 3:Oh, um, the toughest part of the job is coming to each, uh, question that comes to you with a critical mindset, because you get mindset fatigue. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. So it could be a conversation followed by a meeting, followed by, you know, a one-on-one followed by an email. And when you get to that email, maybe you're tired at that point. Right. But I'm opening up an email that's asking me whether I approve, for example, us on board boarding a distributor in, you know, a country in Asia, let's say, um, with these certain red flags and risks. And I have to take that very seriously. So I need to really pause and read that information because that one decision can set off a chain of events. Yeah. Yep. Positively or negatively. Um, and so I think that's the hardest part, is just making sure that you are showing up to each of those conversations, um, in, in a position to, uh, make very important decisions, because that's a big part of being a compliance officer. This sort of buck stops with you, you have to decide mm-hmm.<affirmative> mm-hmm.<affirmative>, um, and you get great counsel and advice and everything, but ultimately you have to decide and in a lot of situations. And so, you know, being ready to make that decision and being careful, but not, uh, paralyzed<laugh> because Right. If you're so worried about all of the things that could happen, you won't make a decision. So it's having the ability to sort of sift through all that information, weigh it all up, and, and decide to go or not go. Um, and that can be tough.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Absolutely. Very well said. I think that, um, you know, there's a, there's a, a, you know, I don't wanna use the word anxiety or anguish. It's, you know, a a seriousness that you have to treat each decision. And if you're not able to, you know, sort of bring yourself to that decision with, you know, full clarity and, you know, um, conscientiousness and, you know, thinking strategically, it's, it's difficult.
Speaker 3:It is. It is. And it, and that's the thing. And, and it's, it's not, um, it's multi decisions in a day. So you have to be ready for that. Um, it's absolutely not. Absolutely. It's not just occasionally
Speaker 2:<laugh>. Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, switching gears. Yeah. Um, kind of our last topic here. You've mentioned mentors a couple of times, and I know you and I have a very similar philosophy about mentors, mentoring, being a mentee. You've been my mentor for a long time. What, what, how have mentors helped you along the way? And who were some of the great mentors in your life?
Speaker 3:Sure. Well, thank you, by the way, for that. I think we, uh, mentored each other. Uh, we grew up together. Um, I think, um, gosh, I mean, without mentors, frankly, uh, a lot of this is less fun. Um, so in addition to the success, which is great, um, you know so much about what we do as people mm-hmm.<affirmative>, um, and so finding, I mean, think about what I was just saying about making all these decisions. You know, I have the pleasure of relying on people all over the world, um, who are awesome, who make you know these, who make it not easy, but easier to make these decisions because I can trust them. So people and having a great team is mission critical. Um, and I'm blessed with that for sure. Um, and part of that responsibility of getting excellent talent and having them, you know, work at, uh, Boston Scientific is a responsibility to make sure they have, you know, colorful, bright, uh, you know, stimulating, engaging careers. And so that's very much about, uh, being a, a mentor, uh, to them. And I've been grateful, uh, to have, uh, those for myself as we just talked about. So I think about it both ways, of course. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> mentors for me, and being a mentor for others. Um, and so I think I mentioned, you know, Desiree, um, I mentioned Jean. Uh, another person I'd like to, uh, mention is, uh, a partner with whom I worked at Pricewaterhouse Coopers, Andy Savitz. Um, he, uh, he was the first person to really, you know, help me understand how important relationships are. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, and he was the type of person, unfortunately he passed away last year, but he was the type of person who, um, he would just pick up the phone or, you know, meet someone for lunch or really do anything with no endgame insight. It wasn't, gosh, you know, if I do this, I'm gonna get this. He just, he just was that type of person, what do you need? How can I help you? Let me call this person. I know this person over here. Uh, he's, uh, was an environmental attorney, and I just loved, um, kind of learning that from him. And he was very, because he was so willing to help, he was very invested in people. And we had a, a deep professional relationship and friendship for many years. And, you know, I talked to him about going to law school, and his first response was like, why do you wanna do that? Cause he always used to say he was a recovering lawyer,<laugh>. Um, and I gave him my best argument, and he's like, all right, I'm convinced<laugh>. And, uh, just having that support from people that you're respected, admire, um, is, is very helpful. So I think mentors, you know, they're people that maybe in a period of your time, uh, of, of your career, they really push you, accelerate you. Um, and then if you're lucky enough, they're lifelong friends and they're cheering you on from the sides, even if they're not, uh, you know, in your day to day, day-to-day, um, uh, you know, kind of decision making. So, uh, those are three that I would say, of course, you know, very lucky to have supportive family. My husband's amazing. Have a lot of friends. Uh, but professionally, I think those three are, are, are, are shining stars. Well,
Speaker 2:I think think that's great. And I, and, and very well said. And, you know, um, I I, I think about mentoring a lot. In fact, I, I feel like part of, you know, the benefit of what we're doing right now, this podcast is to maybe, you know, do some indirect mentoring to folks who might just be listening with questions about, you know, where am I gonna be? What am I gonna do? You know, how do I get into this profession, et cetera. To round out the conversation today, Jessica, what would you say is your best piece of advice to someone just starting out or somebody who wants to start out in this field?
Speaker 3:My best piece of advice is to follow the work that you love. Um, I'm really a big fan of the idea that you should maximize your strengths. Um, so there's, you know, there's like Marcus Buckingham out there, I have done his, um, program, um, standout. And it really talks about like, what do you really love to do? What are you good at? Um, so figuring that out, knowing I always say your secret sauce, like what is your secret sauce? What do you bring to the table? Um, and if you can figure that out, um, and then match that to something that you do every day, by definition, you're gonna be better at it. You're gonna be more engaged or more, more excited about the work, do well, and then, you know, you progress from there. I think with compliance, it isn't as established as something like, you know, let's say accounting where there's the big four accounting firms, there's no big four compliance firms, right? Right, right, right. So you have to then match that with, you know, an industry or a law firm or, or some area of, of, uh, the practice of, you know, law or, um, you know, again, compliance as, as a, as a subject matter that you're, that you're excited about. Um, and then start somewhere. And I, so I wouldn't think my best advice is, I wouldn't think about, um, you know, a title or, um, where it is necessarily that you wanna end up. I mean, if you wanna be a compliance officer, obviously start, you know, try to get into a compliance department at some point, right. And do, and do that, because I think it is important to have, you know, practical experience. Um, but more in your, if you're just starting out, um, think about the, the work. Think about what you would love to do every day, um, and try to match that with opportunities that are out there. And I think if you think you know sort of more about that, your career will unfold itself. Um, and obviously surround yourself with good people. Ask for help, you know, be inquisitive, have that critical, you know, uh, analysis mindset, uh, compliance says a lot about asking that third, fourth, fifth question. Um, and not being sort of, uh, you know, uh, comfortable with just sort of the first response someone gives you. So work on that critical mindset. Um, and I think, I think that's my advice. It's, it's hard for me to say that there's a particular path that anyone should take in compliance because there isn't. And I think that's the, maybe that's makes it a little bit more of a black box for folk folks trying to get into it. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. But it also makes it really interesting because you can come at compliance from so many different, uh, ways that I think it's just focused on what you like to do.
Speaker 2:Well, Jessica, thank you so much for the time today. Thanks for joining us, uh, on the podcast here. Um, your insights, your experience, uh, is just invaluable. And, um, we're so appreciative for the time and hopefully for folks who are listening, you were able to, you know, glean a couple of gem of wisdom from Jessica and, um, we hope to have you back sometime soon. Thank you, Jessica.
Speaker 3:Thank you, Matt. Absolutely. My pleasure.
Speaker 2:And of course, a huge thank you to the Berkeley Research Group for sponsoring the A H L A Fraud Abuse podcast. Thanks very much To our listeners as well. We'll be back next month with another edition.
Speaker 4:Thank you for listening. If you enjoy this episode, be sure to subscribe to a H L A, speaking of health law, wherever you get your podcasts. To learn more about a H L A and the educational resources available to the health law community, visit American health law.org.