AHLA's Speaking of Health Law
The American Health Law Association (AHLA) is the largest nonprofit, nonpartisan educational organization devoted to legal issues in the health care field with nearly 14,000 members. As part of its educational mission, AHLA's Speaking of Health Law podcasts offer thoughtful analysis and insightful commentary on the legal and policy issues affecting the health care system. AHLA is committed to ensuring equitable access to our educational content. We are continually improving the user experience for everyone and applying the relevant accessibility standards. If you experience accessibility issues, please contact accessibility@americanhealthlaw.org.
AHLA's Speaking of Health Law
Career Journeys of Women in Health Law: Lisa Vandecaveye, General Counsel for The Joint Commission
In honor of International Women’s Day, AHLA’s Women’s Leadership Council is pleased to present this three-part series highlighting the career journeys of female leaders in health law. In the third episode, Jennifer Cottrell, COO/CFO, Pinnacle Healthcare Consulting, speaks with Lisa Vandecaveye, General Counsel for The Joint Commission, a nonprofit organization that accredits thousands of U.S. health care organizations and programs. Lisa previously served as Senior Vice President and Chief Corporate Responsibility Officer for Beaumont Health. She served on AHLA’s Board of Directors from 2006-2012 and is currently the Chair of AHLA’s Fellows Coordinating Council. Sponsored by Pinnacle.
New Health Law Daily Podcast Coming in January 2025
Coming in January 2025, AHLA’s popular Health Law Daily email newsletter will also be available as a daily podcast, exclusively for AHLA Premium members. Listen to all the current health law news from the major media outlets on this new podcast! Subscribe Now
Support for ALA comes from pinnacle healthcare consulting. Pinnacle works with hospitals, health systems, a surgery centers, physician groups, law firms, and other healthcare organizations. Their team consists of experts in the area of compliance, audit, and risk mitigation, medical, coding, compensation, and business valuation strategy and operations consulting and transaction support. Learn more about pinnacle@wphc.com.
Speaker 2:Hello, I'm Jennifer Cotrell CFO and COO of pinnacle healthcare consulting. This podcast concludes our three part series exploring the career journeys of women leaders in the healthcare industry, where we have discussed their career trajectories lessons learned and advice for women leaders. This podcast is brought to you by the a H L a women's leadership council, which promotes the engagement of women, a H L a members and supports and advocates for career advancement and representation of women in healthcare leadership positions. The council is comprised of a H L a members from diverse practice areas, geography, and expertise. The council provides a forum for networking advice and mentorship and coordinates and develops educational content of interest to a H L a women members. This podcast series was planned in celebration of international women's day, Tuesday, March 8th, and is proudly sponsored by pinnacle healthcare consulting. Today, I'll be speaking with Lisa van general counsel for the joint commission. The joint commission is a nonprofit organization that accredits more than 22,000 us healthcare organiz and programs. And through the joint commission's international accredits, 80 different countries. Previously, Lisa served as senior vice president and chief corporate responsibility officer for Beaumont health, where she was a member of the executive cabinet. Lisa is an active member of the, a L a serving in multiple leadership roles, including a member of the Association's board of directors from 2006 through 2012. She is currently the chair of the fellows coordinating council. Lisa received a certificate of professional development from the university of Pennsylvania, the Wharton school, and is a frequent speaker and author on topics related to healthcare. Welcome Lisa.
Speaker 3:Uh, thank you, Jennifer. Uh, I'm very pleased to be here today and, uh, I'm honored and humbled. Uh, it's, uh, quite an honor to be, uh, involved in this important podcast. So thank you.
Speaker 2:Thank you. So why don't you, uh, just start by introducing yourself, calling us a little bit about yourself.
Speaker 3:Oh, thank you, Jennifer. Uh, hello everyone. Thank you for joining us today. Uh, I am currently the, uh, general council for the joint commission. Uh, it has been a wonderful, uh, long career, 36 years, uh, working for hospitals and health systems in a broad range of legal issues. Uh, all of my career has been in Michigan except for the last seven years in Chicago. It's like building a cake, you know, all of the experiences built on top of the next one. And the icing on the cake for me was becoming the general council for the joint commission, because in this role, I have to reflect upon my health law experiences, my experiences as a health law executive as a business executive, and I've had to work through many of the deep issues that frustrate us today and are continuing be complex legal issues for the industry.
Speaker 2:Lisa, I love that. Uh, I love that, uh, that, that, uh, image there of the cake, because boy, career your career path is, is much like a cake, right. Is definitely different layers as well. Um, and that kind of brings me to my, to my next question is, you know, tell us about your career path and what led you to your current role.
Speaker 3:Uh, again, a great question. Uh, when you think about a multi-layered take, uh, it sometimes has a few lumps. Uh, sometimes it raises very well. So over the course of 36 years, I've really looked at my career as not just a job, but a career it's really the become very much, um, a vocation, uh, early, when I first started to work in the health law area, uh, people said to me, uh, what are you doing? Uh, health law doesn't exist. Um, but you can go ahead and be a hospital administrator for a while. And that's what I did because at, in the early days, um, the, a full-time job for a health lawyer. So I've always been a continuous learner. I I'll always be grateful to the American health law association, the Michigan hospital association, because I've been able to extend outside of what I refer to as my day job for my passion for healthcare. So very early on, uh, my mother, they passed away in hospice and I took care of her day in and day out, like many folks have to do. And I really developed a passion for end of life care. Uh, as a result of that, I became very active, uh, with the Michigan hospital association. In fact, at that time, uh, Jack Korian, um, was in Michigan and the response by the state of Michigan, uh, was putting together the Michigan death and dying commission. So I actually represented the Michigan hospital association on that commission for two years in which we studied end of life issues. Um, and I'll always be grateful for that opportunity. And now when I reflect back, it, it seems almost impossible to think at that time it was illegal to have a DNR order, to have a do not resuscitate order in a hospital. And today it it's, it's just come so far. Um, the American health law association, uh, allowed me the opportunity to serve on the public interest committee to chair that committee. And we did an, an end of life video and we authored many documents. So today, when I see the evolution of patient rights, it's very heartwarming to see where we have come today and how well we respect the rights of the patients as part of the whole healthcare industry. So for women professionals, you really have to reach outta your day job, look for associations like HLA, other associations that will give you that opportunity to have that full experience of having a vocation in health law. It it's important because it also gives you that opportunity to feel that completeness that you need as you progress through your career,
Speaker 2:A fascinating background there. What, what boy, and I can't even imagine if you've received one piece of advice, but talking about valuable pieces of advice, is there one, or there could be share with us multiple pieces of advice that you have received in your, in your career?
Speaker 3:Well, I think like all of us, uh, Jennifer, we get advice from people all the time. Oh,
Speaker 2:That is so true. That is so true.
Speaker 3:Sometimes we like the advice. Sometimes we don't,
Speaker 2:Sometimes it's a little hard. Yes. Sometimes it's difficult,
Speaker 3:But we, we learn a little bit from every piece of that advice. And I think when, if I group them together, some of the best advice came when dealing with clients, uh, because, uh, you know, I look at being an attorney and a counselor and very much the piece I enjoy the most is the counselor role. So in doing that, you have to have patience. You have to really practice listening, uh, because you have to listen to understand before you can respond. And many times I have to catch myself because I'm listening to respond as opposed understand, but in order to truly ha help someone or help your client, you have to understand all the issues. In addition, uh, it's important to get to the point and not to ramble. And, uh, here I am rambling, but, um, you know, I try to always be very much to the point. I spend a lot of time preparing remarks so that when I'm talking to a group, I try to hit just what I think they're interested in. And then practically you have to admit, admit, sometimes you don't know an answer and that's hard to do, but you can say, you know, that's a really good question. I don't have the answer, but I'll get back to you. And that makes you look pretty human. And also it looks like you're really doing your homework too. And then lastly, I think creativity is important because looking at a situation, looking at it in different ways and understanding how that impact your client helps you come up with a creative solution, sometimes a third alternative, and, uh, that takes time and takes patience. So I know that that isn't just one piece of advice, but it's sort of an accumulation of advice that I've received over the years, um, in working with some really outstanding, uh, lawyers and executives.
Speaker 2:I love that. We'll talk a little bit more about soft skills later on. Um, but I love that, you know, practice listening to understand it is, it's so hard sitting in that role as a counselor, right. Wanting to, to add that advice right. To, to bring forth that advice. And sometimes it's just as important, if not more important to listen, to understand. I love that comment. And
Speaker 3:I think we're trained to wanna argue. Right. We listen, and then we wanna argue a point. Right. Right. And there, there is a time for that. Um, yes. So,
Speaker 2:Yes. Uh, how about an experience, can you tell us, or share with us in an experience that has impacted your career or a lesson that you have learned?
Speaker 3:Oh boy, we have experiences every day. And I, you know, I talked earlier about, uh, uh, uh, helping my mother through the end of life and through hospice. Um, there was a point in my career, uh, where I did a lot, uh, medical staff hearings. And I worked with medical staffs. Um, there was a situation in which, uh, I was working with a medical staff and with a board of trustees. And, uh, we had a physician who was moving his way through the fair hearing process. And he was having a very difficult time. And I spent a lot of time talking to him. I could tell that he was having a challenge with it, but my role was to guide the organization through the process. And he was a very nice man, but found himself in a very difficult situation. Hmm. And, uh, when it came to the day, when we were having the hearing before the board of trustee, he didn't show up oh, and we couldn't reach him. And, uh, it wasn't until a month later that I received a certified letter indicating that he had committed suicide.
Speaker 2:Oh,
Speaker 3:Wow. And I have to tell you, I just stopped for a moment. I, uh, I, I was speechless. Uh, I felt just terrible. What could you do differently? Could anybody have anticipated this outcome? And I really don't think anyone can, but the lesson for me there was compassion. Hmm. And to think about the fact that we're dealing with people we're dealing with people's lives and having that compassion and understanding of how this may impact someone, even if you're not representing them is an important piece for all of us as professionals.
Speaker 2:Oh, yes. Wow. Uh, definitely. Um, I mean, multiple experiences there, but, uh, I, I can only imagine that, uh, the impact that that has had in your career, um, you know, and throughout your career, um, do, do you have any, any role models or, or mentors who have impacted your career?
Speaker 3:Oh, it's interesting. Uh, 36 years was a long time when I look back, you know, I've had some wonderful people, you know, early on in my career. Uh, there was a gentleman by the name of John Brady and John, uh, taught me how to be a lawyer. And, uh, spent a lot of time helping me understand how all the, of pieces fit together. He was a seasoned attorney and he took me under his wing a little later in my career. I, I had just the wonderful opportunity to work for Cindy whiner. Uh, Cindy whiner was the general counsel. I was the associate general counsel and, uh, Cindy was always a kind ear. And I give Cindy credit for introduce, see me to the American health law association. One afternoon. She invited me into her office to participate in a planning committee for the in-house council, uh, planning committee. And from there, she supported my progress and has been a great colleague in mentor ever since. And then once I got involved with the American health law association, I'm very grateful to Elizabeth Belmont Elizabeth was a great mentor, brilliant attorney, and helped me think through many issues, both within the association and as a lawyer. I think it's just so critical as a lawyer that you have, what I refer to as lawyers, lawyers, lawyers, that you go to and say, look, I have this issue it's protected under privilege. I can't give you all the details, but just help me think through what the next steps are. Help me think through what the issues are, how do I make sure I've spotted all those issues? So, you know, I, I hesitated to mention any names because just had so many wonderful attorneys and professionals who have taken the time to guide me through my career and I'll be forever grateful to them. And I hope that I am doing the same for, uh, the next generation of lawyers
Speaker 2:That, uh, is a wonderful, um, entree to my next question. Um, terms of, how do you describe yourself as a leader?
Speaker 3:It's interesting. I just been finished about a year worth of training for, um, the attorneys that work with me in our department. And we focused on leadership skills, uh, for lawyers and we focused on what type of leader are you? Because I believe that every lawyer is a leader and I view my, uh, style as a servant leader. I'm at a position in my career where I enjoy working with our legal team, developing career development plans. Um, I have a passion for people and I want to make their lives better, not just their career, but their career is one piece of their life. And how do we make their career better? So the rest of their life is better. Uh, there are so many comp flex and difficult issues today, and they're happening so fast because of social media and by working together and identifying how we can take that piece as a leader and produce better results and continue to follow a career while at the same time take care of every other piece in your family is an important piece. So I have to say I'm really enjoying this, uh, this stage of my career. And I have to say that, uh, our legal team is just phenomenal, just a great group of lawyers and great group of professionals.
Speaker 2:Well, that, uh, same topic of, of being a leader. What, what do you think are some important soft skills? You, you mentioned it before listening, being creative, any other soft skills you can share with us today?
Speaker 3:It's interesting. One of the soft skills that, uh, I talk about is executive presence. You know, what is your presence? Uh, what does your demeanor, um, say to the people that you're with and part of communicating is having that presence. Hmm. And having that confidence that when you say something, it is the right answer. Uh, in addition having some emotional intelligence, I know that phrase is used quite a lot, but being able to step away from what could be a fairly D cult situation, highly charged and appreciate that it's not personal and that your role is to help whoever you're working with to move through the legal issues, which may also involve moving through some of the emotional issues that go with that. So, as I said earlier, uh, listening skills so important and practicing those listening skills, I still practice those every day, uh, because I do fall into that habit of sometimes of wanting to get something done and just moving forward. So those are just some soft skills.
Speaker 2:I, I love that because again, going back to the listening, when you are, when you are present in the moment, then you can, you do have the ability to listen, right. But that's hard as, as leaders, as, um, as lawyers, you know, not charging forth, which is a natural reaction and taking that moment to pause and reflect, um, it, uh, it, I love that executive presence, right? Because those are those executives that really do take that time to, to understand by doing this.
Speaker 3:I just think it's really helpful if you find executives that you really admire is to listen to them, speak and watch the, how they handle themselves, watch their movements, um, because you want to inspire that confidence.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, absolutely. Lisa, so tell me what, what is something you are proud of?
Speaker 3:Well, it's, I, I, it's an interesting question. And I've had to think about that quite a lot. And, uh, uh, I have to say that, uh, what I'm most proud of is my family. Uh, my husband and my daughter, they really have endured with me and supported my career the last 36 years. Um, my daughter, before she started school, used to try apple with me, I would take around airplanes and get babysitters in hotels. And my husband supported my seven day work weeks. Um, he worked very hard also, but we always found that cadence of working together. Uh, I remember a time when, uh, I was teaching health law at a law school. I, and I would take my daughter and my nephew with me to class, and they would sit in the back of the room and do their homework. And, you know, I just reflect on the fact that it really became a family event. And, uh, I'm just proud of the fact that we've supported our, each other through that. Uh, my daughter, uh, laughed. I remember one time she said, um, you know, I don't place house. I play office. So
Speaker 2:She, the best assistant best assistant you've ever had.
Speaker 3:Right. Exactly, exactly. And, uh, so, you know, I'm, I'm passionate about my career and my family's been a big part of it, and yes, I could talk about, um, some, just some wonderful events that have happened over the last 36 years, but without my family, I, um, I couldn't have done it. So in our family, we work hard and we play hard and, uh, that unit has some, it will be something I'm forever proud of.
Speaker 2:Lisa. That's wonderful. Thank you for sharing that. Uh, any final comments or thoughts you you'd like to share with our audience today?
Speaker 3:Well, I think as women professionals, uh, and as lawyers, uh, it's, it's important that, um, you not only take care of yourself, you take care of your family, but you just never give up. You just get up every day, you put a smile on your face and you do the best you, and, uh, being that positive role model, not only for other attorneys, uh, other professionals, but also for your family. And when you get to the end of that journey, you can hopefully finish with a smile on your face. And, uh, I hope that I hope that for all of you and I would also, um, say to anyone on the podcast, uh, please feel free to reach out to me if I can help in any way. Uh, and, uh, again, I thank you, Jennifer. I thank the American health law association for this opportunity. I'm very honored and very humbled by it. So thank you, Jennifer.
Speaker 2:Thank you, Lisa. It's been an absolute pleasure speaking with you today.
Speaker 3:Thank you.
Speaker 4:Thank you for listening. If you enjoy this episode, be sure to subscribe to a HLA. Speaking of health law, wherever you get your podcasts to learn more about ALA and the educational resources available to the health law community, visit American health law.org.