AHLA's Speaking of Health Law
The American Health Law Association (AHLA) is the largest nonprofit, nonpartisan educational organization devoted to legal issues in the health care field with nearly 14,000 members. As part of its educational mission, AHLA's Speaking of Health Law podcasts offer thoughtful analysis and insightful commentary on the legal and policy issues affecting the health care system. AHLA is committed to ensuring equitable access to our educational content. We are continually improving the user experience for everyone and applying the relevant accessibility standards. If you experience accessibility issues, please contact accessibility@americanhealthlaw.org.
AHLA's Speaking of Health Law
Health Law Career Journeys: Elena Kohn, Associate Divisional Chief Legal Officer, AdventHealth
In this series from AHLA’s Early Career Professionals Council, health law professionals share their career paths, what they wish they had known as students, and what a typical day in their job looks like. In this episode, Alé Dalton, Associate, Bradley Arant Boult Cummings LLP, speaks with Elena Kohn, Associate Divisional Chief Legal Officer, AdventHealth. Elena talks about why health law appeals to her character and personality, her experience working as in-house counsel across a wide range of health care provider types, and how to grow one’s online engagement.
Watch the conversation here.
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This episode of A H L A speaking of health law is brought to you by A H L A members and donors like you. For more information, visit american health law.org.
Speaker 2:Hey guys, welcome to A H L A. Speaking of health law, I'm Allie Dalton. I'm an attorney of Bradley, and I focus primarily on healthcare transactions and all things surrounding making those happen. This episode is brought to you by the Early Career Professionals Council or the ECP C, and our goal with these episodes is to showcase the breadth and variety of careers that folks in health law can have, and to encourage law students and young professionals who are trying to decide where they might fit into this health law world. Our guest today is Elena Cohn, an associate divisional chief legal Officer at Admin Health. We actually met online through LinkedIn, so I'm really excited for us to, uh, chat about a little bit of how Elena has grown her network and her brand and her career through her online engagement, as well as what she does day-to-day at Admin Health. So we, without further ado, Elena, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 3:Ellie, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to meet you virtually because we only really communicated via LinkedIn, but it feels like I know you, you know, and that's the beauty of LinkedIn and it's also the beauty of loving health law and having so much in common. Right?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Um, so just to start off, I think it'd be really great if you could share with us a little bit about, um, the path that you took to your current role at Admin Health.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. I would be happy to, to share with you and the audience my path to, to where I am right now. Um, so I went to law school and I wanted to practice family law, and everybody that I talked to told me, you know, you really have to be very patient, individual, um, in order to be a family law practitioner long term. And I looked inactively and I'm not a very patient individual. And so I thought about it. I thought about it, and then, you know, I was always interested in corporate and business law. And so I figured, you know, I'm going to take all of the classes related to to, to that subject, which is what I did when I was in law school. And, um, upon graduation, I was an associate in a top 100 m law, uh, law firm. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, uh, and they did have a corporate department, the health law department. Uh, and I was kind of splitting my time between the two, but mostly really doing health, law, um, stuff and health law assignments. Uh, working for a national renowned cancer research center that we have here in Tampa Bay. Um, physician practices physicians and just loving it. And, and, and I was so about how health law constantly changes, you know, you know, you can adjust to it. Every year there's something new that comes up and I like a good challenge. Um, and I think maybe because I'm not a patient person, that kind of fast pace of health law really appeals to my and personality. And so a, after a while when I was in a, a law firm, a client approached me, um, and I was doing some comments on premises, you know, with the client. And I think eventually they realized that it would be more cost effective for them to hire me direct versus, you know, paying my hourly rate to the law firm. And so,
Speaker 2:Do you mind for a second, just pausing and explaining to our audience what secondment is? Cause I think some folks might not be familiar if they're coming in a straight out of law school or early on in their careers.
Speaker 3:I'll do my best. So by that I meant that the law firm sent me to the client to work on their premises directly from, you know, the business office one week a month, two weeks a month, depending on the client's need, which was really great exposure because you get the work with business people from this specific client. And if you had questions, you could just walk to the office and ask those questions versus, you know, emailing and waiting on a response. So it was a really good opportunity. Um, but that's how I ended up actually, uh, working in-house. This is my very first in-house council job, uh, with a primary care physician group. Um, and, you know, it was very different from law firm, life<laugh>. Uh, I loved it. I absolutely loved it. And then that kind of led to my second job because the CFO from the physician group went to work in another company that didn't have an attorney. Oh, wow. And so he said, would you consider working as our very first general counsel<laugh>, which is a really fancy, fancy title for a solo attorney who does all of the company's legal work,<laugh>. But, um, it sounded exciting. I liked what the company was doing, and of course it was in the healthcare sector. So, um, I dove right in. Um, you know, it was a great learning opportunity because it's the only attorney for the entire company. I had to deal with employment law issues, immigration law issues, insurance, uh, medical malpractice, liability insurance, and sometimes even responses in addition to your kind of what's considered to be most standard, uh, healthcare laws like fraud, abuse, you know, star kickback, Florida state healthcare laws and regulations, hipaa, all those very
Speaker 2:Calm job<laugh>.
Speaker 3:Yeah. You know, I'm grateful for the opportunity. Mm-hmm. Even though at times back then, it didn't necessarily feel that way just because of how fast paced it was and how much I had to learn. But now looking back, it was a great opportunity. Um, so, and then, uh, after that I was offered another, again, GC meeting, so, uh, practitioner, the owner attorney, uh, in the legal department position to work for a physical therapy company. Um, and I accepted, and I really have to say enjoyed working with physical therapists. There is something about them and a wholesome approach to patient care. Um, and, you know, your mind and body connection, it really appealed to me, enjoyed working with them. And then the company, of course, had to move from Tampa to Grand Rapids, um, Michigan. Yeah. So I had to fly there probably for two weeks a month. And, uh, that was, you know, becoming more and more complicated as my daughter was only two years old and she was missing me at home. It was like, oh, I love the job, but I also love my daughter. And so when I do, and so I found a job locally, uh, in Tampa Bay, and I work for an O G Y N group that underwent a lot of growth and expansion. And it was also super exciting and I loved it, but my goal was, um, to transition to hospital healthcare system. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, why? Because having worked in a law firm doing health law, and then worked for several physician groups in different specialties, I thought it could be a good challenge for me as a health law attorney to experience more of the medical staff potentially in privileging, um, bylaws, um, hospital side patient care related issues, because that's something that I didn't have experience in. And of course, that's exactly why I wanted to work for a hospital healthcare system, right.
Speaker 2:That's like the bread and butter of the hospital system,
Speaker 3:<laugh>. But I, I see. I just, I really wanted to learn that type of law because I feel like it could make me an even better kind of wholesome, uh, health law attorney.
Speaker 2:Very cool. That I love your journey. I feel like, um, it also sounds like your level of experience that you're taking in, that you took into this role at a health is so varied,<laugh>, you've been in every pocket of the healthcare space, which is, which is really cool. And I think it's rare for a lot of folks. Um, I think on that, folks who are listening might be interested in knowing a couple of things as far as, you know, I think, um, of course you, you expressed, you know, kind of went from the law firm world into the in-house council, sort of through the secondment bridge, and then have devoted your career to in-house roles. Do you guys hire directly entry lawyer, uh, or entry level attorneys? Or is it, does it tend to be folks who are coming from a law firm that you have exposure to? Or what does that look like? Cause I think that's a question that we get a lot of. Can I start in-house? Sounds amazing. Can I start there?
Speaker 3:So that would be a better question to our chief legal officer<laugh> for admin health. I definitely don't want to speak for him.
Speaker 2:That is fair. Very,
Speaker 3:He has, he has a feel for people. He's very good at interviewing people and really learning about their personalities. And, you know, we have an extensive interview process. I will say that we do have some attorneys who went to work for health directly from law firms. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay. Yeah, no, I think that's really helpful. And also I think what folks, you know, might not be as familiar with is, is there is a level of expertise that you get solely by being at a law firm that I think translates well to ha Hauser seems to translate well, just to, you know, getting your feet wet and then kind of transitioning, especially if you go to a client, you have those relationships already, kind of how, how you've shared Definitely. And I mm-hmm.<affirmative>. Yeah. And I think the other question on that is just what does a typical day look like for you in-house? I know you shared a little bit of the topics, um, what your bread and butter is in the health, uh, health system space, but I can only imagine the many questions that you get on a day to day basis. So
Speaker 3:I was gonna say, Elliot, it's a, it's a, it's a funny question. What does your typical day look like? I'll tell you, I have a list of tasks that I hope to accomplish every day. Okay. And I probably, you know, accomplish just a couple of those because other things that are more urgent and more pressing come up every day. And, uh, working in-house, you just gotta be flexible and being able to rearrange your priorities as a business or your organization if you are working for a not-for-profit requires. So to answer your question, there is no typical day. It's a
Speaker 2:Typical day.<laugh>
Speaker 3:No typical day, every day is different. Um, but I, I do enjoy working in-house and I think, uh, it's critical not just for in-house, but uh, for a law firm attorney, especially someone who's just starting out on their career journey, not to assume that they know the factual, um, you know, assumptions, uh, regarding the research that they're asked to do. Any time that you are not sure, don't be shy. I know it could be really overwhelming to ask a senior partner who's been practicing for a long time, because you don't wanna come across as somebody who doesn't necessarily understand or maybe not smart enough. You know, the worst thing is to assume that you know all the answers to the factual questions and not ask that one question that could be actually critical for your research. Uh, so I would recommend asking as many questions as possible before jumping into a legal research assignment, regardless of whether you are in a law firm environment or, uh, in house.
Speaker 2:Yeah. No, I think that's helpful and I appreciate your honesty and all of these things on sort of like, it depends, right? I think that that's what<laugh> the answer always ends up being with lawyers. And I think it can be, uh, a little, I remember a little being a little eye rolly about that when I was a, a law student and wondering why lawyers kind of always went with that. But, but as you said, it just, it can vary. Every question's so different. And you said earlier, it, health law is a field where you're constantly learning and things are constantly changing, whether it's because of a change in administration to a change in the law triggered by a global pandemic, you just never know what you're gonna get. And one of the partners I work with always says, there's never a dull moment. And I feel like that<laugh> that is,
Speaker 3:Um, 100%. So that's, that's perfect for us. Yes. Helpful.
Speaker 2:Um, so the other thing that I think would be really interesting for our listeners would for you to share a little bit about the, um, engagement that you have online. I think, you know, this, this crop of, of future health law folks, uh, who are coming up are very familiar with engaging in online content, potentially creating content. But I think you have sort of a really good niche where, I mean, your brand, you know, you constantly are growing your brand in a very organic way. And like you said, I feel like we've known each other for a long time, even though we haven't actually ever met in real life. Um, but we, our networks overlap and we've introduced each other to other folks, you know, who are, um, in our own networks. And I think that it'd be just great to share a little bit about that. I also feel like you don't get enough publicity on the fact that you wrote a chapter for the women in law book<laugh>, which I think is so cool,<laugh>, and I know a lot of those opportunities have come about because of the work that you do online, sort of virtually mentoring folks. So I'll stop talking so you can share a little bit about that. No,
Speaker 3:Please keep talking. I really like listening to you. You have such an engaging personality, so it's a pleasure to, to talk to you. Appreciate it, uh, about all of this. Um, but yes, uh, for anybody who's listening, who's just starting out or might still be in law school, we did write this book. It's called Women in Law, discovering the True Meaning of Success. And it's really an anthology, which means that there are 23 women lawyers who co-authored, uh, this book. And it's about each of those women's, you know, uh, career journey and career path. And we do have law firm partners. We have in-house counsel, we have international lawyers, we have attorneys who decided to pursue non-legal careers, um, who, you know, co-authored that book. In terms of your other question about LinkedIn engagement, I think the same thing applies in real life as it does online. And that is being authentic. Um, valuing your name and your network. Your name is your biggest asset. Um, be a good person. Uh, health law community is such a small community. Like you said, Ellie, our networks overlap. Everybody knows each other. So if somebody is being mean or nasty to somebody else, other people will hear about it. And you know, it's good for to keep that in mind for client development because people will not refer clients to you. Uh, it's good to keep that in mind for our career opportunities too, because in the end of the day, people want to work with people whom they like. It's understood that you will have substantive skills. That's kind of a given, but what else can you offer on top of that?
Speaker 2:That is very wise advice. Thank you for that. And then last but not least, I thought it might be nice to wrap up with you imparting some wisdom on what is something that you know now after all the roles that you've held and all the experience that you have in the health law space that you wish you had known when you were a law student or maybe a first year lawyer at your firm.
Speaker 3:That is such an excellent question. So I'm gonna pause
Speaker 2:<laugh>
Speaker 3:For dramatic effect,
Speaker 2:Then I'm gonna background,
Speaker 3:And then I'm gonna tell you that what I discovered is that I know nothing, that there is still so much to learn and that I am going to keep an open mind about every interaction, about every regulation I read, about every patient interaction that I have, or interaction with business people, or interaction with my colleagues that I have. And that I'm going to continue growing as much as I can. So keep an open mind and you'll succeed.
Speaker 2:<laugh>. I love that. Well, thank you so much for your time, Elena. It's so good to see you in person. Um, and we're so grateful for you sharing your story with our listeners. And if folks, um, wanna follow you, you are like we've talked about, you're very active on LinkedIn and they can just find you there under your name and hopefully they can continue to learn from your wisdom and your experience in the
Speaker 3:Thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening. If you enjoy this episode, be sure to subscribe to a H L A speaking of health law wherever you get your podcasts. To learn more about a H L A and the educational resources available to the health law community, visit American health law.org.