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AHLA's Speaking of Health Law
Career Journeys in Health Law: Insights from Four Asian American Attorneys
In honor of Asian American and Pacific Islander Heritage Month, AHLA has partnered with the National Asian Pacific American Bar Association to highlight the career journeys of four Asian American attorneys. They discuss how they came to practice in health law, some of the major issues they are dealing with in their current roles, their experiences as Asian Americans in the health law profession, and advice they would give to newer health law professionals.
Moderated by Stephen Lee, Solo Practitioner, Law Office of Stephen Chahn Lee LLC, the panel includes Ranmali Bopitiya, Executive Vice President and Chief Legal Officer, Oscar Health, Juliet K. Choi, President and CEO, Asian & Pacific Islander American Health Forum, and Kathryn Doi, Partner, Feldesman Tucker Leifer Fidell LLP.
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Speaker 2:Thanks for having us all here. We have a great group of Asian American lawyers today covering a wide range of health, law policy, health coverage providers and fraud, waste and abuse. Uh, we have today with us , uh, four people, including myself , uh, Ruma Lee Bo Petia , executive Vice President and Chief Legal Officer at the health insurance company, Oscar Juliet , k Choy, the president, and c e o of the Asian Pacific Islander American Health Forum, a nonprofit health justice organization. Catherine Doy , a partner with the law firm , Feldsman Tucker in Sacramento, where she is partner in charge of the firm's California office and is a member of the firm's healthcare and litigation practice groups. And there's me , uh, I was a federal prosecutor and served as senior counsel of the Chicago US Attorney's Office's Healthcare Fraud Unit. And I'm now a solo practitioner in Chicago focusing on healthcare fraud . So we have a great group today , uh, and I'm looking forward to talking to all of you. Uh , we're going to discuss the issues and challenges that we deal with as healthcare attorneys who are Asian Pacific American, but let's start with how each of us got involved with healthcare law in the first place. Catherine , uh, you're the one of us who's at a law firm right now, a large law firm. Could you begin by talking about your journey in healthcare law ?
Speaker 3:Thank you, Stephen . I'd be happy to . And hello to everyone who's listening to the podcast. Um, so I'm a Japanese American. My father was a n meaning first generation born in America, and my mother is as San second generation born in America. My parents were both PhDs in the science in the sciences. So I'm a first generation lawyer. I went to law school because I had spent a summer in Washington DC and saw law as a tool to make positive changes in society. But I didn't have a specific plan as to how I wanted to use that tool when I went to law school, or even when I graduated. It's been a long and secure this decades long journey to where I am now, and it's been a positive, fulfilling experience every step of the way. After law school, I clerk for federal judge something I strongly recommend to anyone entering the practice of law , and then was accepted into the , um, US Department of Justice Honors Program in the environmental or civil rights sections, but decided to go into private practice instead because Ronald Reagan was the president, and I didn't share his administration's vision of what environmental and civil rights enforcement would look like . So instead, I started at or where I , uh, when it was a San Francisco based regional law firm as the second a p i female associate. It was a very supportive environment, and I learned a lot. But I left private practice , um, at that point after I had my daughter and got divorced and was raising my daughter as a single parent. And I took a position with the California Commission on Judicial Performance, the state agency that investigates es ethics complaints about judges. The CJP was also a terrific experience. Um, but I was having lunch one day with a former professor who was working for the Gray Davis administration, and we discovered through conversation that two lawyers who had been junior associates with me at ORIC were then the Legal Affairs secretary and a cabinet secretary for the Davis administration. And the cabinet secretary is looking for a chief counsel . So I submitted my resume to them and was appointed to be the chief counsel to the Secretary of the Trading Commerce agency. And then , uh, moved over to be a senior deputy Legal Affairs secretary. After the recall, I joined a boutique firm specializing in administrative and regulatory law, and then moved to a Sacramento based business firm that was building its healthcare practice. So that was the first time I got into healthcare, which was well into my career. Um, and then I moved to San Francisco based firm with a larger healthcare practice. And now, as of last month, I joined Feldsman Tucker, which is actually a DC based firm to launch their California practice. In each case, I was happy where I was, but the new position offered new challenges and opportunities. And one wonderful thing about being a lawyer there is there are endless opportunities for personal and professional growth for people like me that , um, need the new challenges every, you know, so often. Thanks, Stephen . Thanks.
Speaker 2:Thanks Catherine. And yeah, I think for , especially for the younger lawyers or the newer attorneys who are listening to this, yeah, I think a lot of this is actually a lot of this you plan and a lot of this you don't in terms of your career. And I think that's the case for a lot of us here . Uh , Ruly , maybe you can talk about your journey next.
Speaker 4:Sure. Steven , and it's nice to meet all of you virtually through the podcast. You know, Catherine, listening to your story, what's interesting is that when I think about my journey into health law , it also starts with , um, the roots of my family and my family's story. So my parents immigrated to the US from Sri Lanka, and it's , uh, totally , uh, cliche to be a South Asian lawyer who's whose father is a doctor. But I am absolutely part of that cliche. Uh, but I think it's interesting to think about it contextually because my parents immigrated in 1968, which is four years after the Immigration Act of 1964 passed, which opened the door for immigration for families like my family . So when you, it is a , it is a cliche to be a doctor's kid, but when you think about it in context of why , um, why my parents were, had the ability to immigrate in the first place, it actually makes a lot more contextual sense. Um, so when my, my family, my dad had a private practice in Florida and always made a really big point of serving every patient that came to his practice regardless, regardless of their ability to pay. And my parents used to talk about the fact that in Sri Lanka, which is a country that has much less material wealth than the United States , um, it's always noticeable that , uh, no one was turned away at the hospital for inability to pay. And the fact that this country has so much wealth and opportunity, but the , there's such a big equality gap in terms of access to healthcare was always really striking. So I was really motivated to explore what are the systematic reasons why that has come to be, and , uh, can I have a career that has impact in , uh, increasing access and affordability , uh, for all Americans to healthcare? And that's, that's really what got me motivated and excited to work in the space and the kind of thread that has woven through my career. I started in private practice representing mostly the provider side in healthcare. And , uh, then, and , and I recommend private practice is amazing training grounds. I am no longer at a law firm like Catherine, but I think that it's, it's an incredible way to learn the craft. And I had a wonderful professor who said, it's wonderful to have great intentions, but first go get good at what you do. Um, so I went into private practice and then had the opportunity as a mid-year, you know, six years out to go in-house for my first in-house job where I was basically the acting general counsel of a little startup within Stanford Healthcare . Stanford had started a subsidiary that was , uh, right after the a c a passed to try to figure out how can they manage care, how can they , um, deliver value-based care for employers. And we started out by figuring out how we could do that for our own employees. So I was the , um, the acting GC of that little subsidiary, but had the opportunity to train and learn with in-house GCs for the Stanford system. Uh, then I moved in-house , uh, within Kaiser Permanente to be the general counsel of the Permanente Medical Group here in Colorado , um, where I really had to learn how to expand my legal skillset to the fact that when you're in-house counsel and when you're a general counsel , you are just as much member of the executive team as you are a lawyer. And I really explored that part of my career practice when I, when I became a gc , uh, at C P M G . And then , um, got the opportunity to go to a high growth company , um, that's a direct primary care company called Ever Side Health, that was a VC backed , uh, company and getting back into doing m and a like I was doing at Stanford, and learned about kind of the finance and the, the backend of what , uh, what funds a lot of, a lot of the healthcare system. And then lastly, transition from ever side house to Oscar house , which is a public company , uh, that is also growing and, and serving , uh, folks in the a c a with affordable , um, and high quality healthcare . So that, that's , uh, that's a bit about my journey.
Speaker 2:Thanks, Emily . Um, so Juliet , uh, I think of the four of us here, I think you have the most non-traditional path , um, as, as a loiter in healthcare. Uh, can you talk about how you got here?
Speaker 5:Sure. Thanks, Steven . Wow, this is a terrific panel, and thanks for everybody that's tuning in here today. Uh, so can I just share greetings from Washington, dc I am one of those of many recovering attorneys , uh, in Washington dc . Um , I do wanna share what I am hearing from Catherine and Molly is , uh, you know, there's something from our own family, our community background that drives us here. Uh, so I do wanna share on a personal note. Uh, I, I encountered a situation in my younger years where access to healthcare insurance was an issue and a challenge. Um, English is my first language , uh, but nonetheless, it was a challenging experience. Um, I do wanna share with the folks that are joining us today. I always do say , you never know what's around the corner. Um, and so blending those two ideas , uh, I actually decided to pursue law a little bit later on in life as a career switch. I was in corporate broadcasting in the private sector for many years and decided to go to law school in my thirties because I thought there is something fabulous and wanting when it comes to healthcare and access to healthcare . And I landed on what's one way, what's a pathway that will work for me where I can be an advocate, where I can help influence system reform and bring community voice forward? So I thought there are a lot of different ways to do this, had the benefit of mentors and colleagues and community friends, but I really thought, you know what? Given where I am at having a law degree, being a lawyer, being able to litigate, being able to understand the regulatory framework and influence that that can bring about , I really thought , uh, law school and becoming an attorney was , uh, was the , was the pathway for me. Um, so from there , uh, I went to law school with an intention of focusing on civil rights and healthcare . Um , I will say for those in the audience , uh, younger and maybe newer , uh, for me, it was also really important. I wanted to do a judicial clerkship after law school. And I hope, hopefully we'll have a couple of minutes later on our conversation to talk about our other decisions and pathways , uh, in terms of where we are now . Um , but I will say I'm so glad I took the path that I did, that I had the mentors and supporters that I did, and my journey led me to leading national disaster relief operations at the Red Cross. Uh , so this is why I say , you know, I'm a recovering attorney because my day job over the last, I don't know , 15 to 20 years has not been in a , in an attorney capacity, but certainly my legal training and exposure to litigation has helped me in my leadership roles. Uh, and then fast forward , I had the really special privilege and honor of serving the Obama administration. Um, I was the number two , uh, the chief of staff at Civil Rights at the Department of Health and Human Services where you get to set, you get , you get to set, you get to influence, you have the opportunity to bring about ways where community voice indu , industry voice can come forward. Um, and for me, both professionally and personally, making sure communities, particularly immigrant communities, have a voice can show up in the government process, can show up in the civil rights enforcement process. The HIPAA enforcement process was really, really critical. Uh, given that the audience's a H L A , I wanna give a shout out to my law school, university of Maryland School of Law. We at the GetGo had a wonderful partnership right upfront with A H L A , but even in the HIPAA enforcement space, I think for those lawyers are tuning in, whether you are a provider or a covered entity. And I was on the enforcement end, I do wanna highlight, I think this is an area where the consumer, the patient, the community voice is sometimes very much lacking from a systems perspective. And what we knew through HIPAA enforcement, by way of example, is that patients have a lot of individual rights under the HIPAA enforcement umbrella. But what are we, as government and industry and as a legal community doing to ensure that individuals get that patient education about their rights in a way that like puts aside the legalese, the DC policy, wonky language so that consumers, patients , and communities are empowered both from the compu , from the community, where they come from and the language. So I'm really proud to say, while I was at H H S O C R on the HIPAA enforcement side, we actually did invest a lot of time and political capital to ensure our patient education efforts were in language and relatable to community, particularly immigrant communities. Um, fast forward now , um, you know, from the Obama administration, I worked at H H s I also worked at Homeland Security, US Citizenship and Immigration Services. So it gave me the unique opportunity to have vantage point on immigration issues that can also impact our families and , uh, communities from the intersectionality of immigration, healthcare , and civil rights. And I think that's a , uh, that's a nice way to wrap up and say, this is why I am now here at the Health Forum advocating on healthcare issues that really, really do impact the Asian American native wine , Pacific Islander communities, communities of color, and immigrant communities w at large. Um, I think the last thing I'll share just to like, as a capstone matter , uh, because I'm sure we have a lot of regulatory a , uh, attorneys in the audience, you know, just a couple of weeks ago, h h s has announced in its rulemaking process making healthcare access , uh, available to DACA individuals both through Medicaid and through the marketplace. So for those of you who are tuning in, whether in your pro bono capacity or your daytime capacity rulemaking, we know is so important, and I would ask and invite all of you to join and take, take the view, what can you do to uplift immigrant communities when it comes to healthcare access? So Steven and panel and team, thanks so much and I'll turn it back to you, Steven .
Speaker 2:Thanks, Juliet. So , uh, yeah, so my journey in healthcare is, is is similar to a lot of what you've already heard here. Um, I , I also served in the government and , um, I'll talk a little bit about my journey here. So , um, yeah, so , uh, like my father was a doctor and he was an immigrant doctor who came in the 1960s. And I grew up wanting to be a doctor just like my dad. And , uh, you know, I actually asked my mother later on, many years later, like, why she and my dad were so adamant I might be a doctor. And for her, it really was for her. She was like, back in that time, she really couldn't imagine her children doing well in America as anything other than a doctor or an engineer. And so for her, I think just the idea of seeing a , seeing her son be an Asian American lawyer , um, seeing all these other Asian American lawyers out there, it's kind of something she really couldn't really imagine back in that era. Um, so it's really exciting that how far we've become . Um, so I grew up wanting to be a doctor , uh, but I actually, my path to becoming a lawyer was through journalism. Um , I worked, I became a journalist and that was what pulled me away from , from medicine and eventually drew me to the law. Um, and so I was a , I was a reporter, then I became a lawyer, and then I ended up being a federal prosecutor in Chicago for 11 years, where I ended up focusing mostly on healthcare fraud. Um, and that, you know, kind of was planned and kind of wasn't , uh, I wanted do healthcare fraud cases, but , uh, I, I remember my, my, my new section sheet asking me, okay, now you're in economic crime section, what do you wanna do? And I remember the first thought that hit me was, well, I don't wanna do any more mortgage fraud cases , uh, because this was right after the, the , you know, the great recession in 2008, 2009 time period where, and we've been doing a lot of those cases. So I ended up doing healthcare fraud cases. I served as senior council to my office's healthcare fraud unit, and , uh, did that for several years. And then I went in private practice initially at a mid-size law firm and now , uh, for the past year as a solo practitioner. Um, so it's been, you know, it's, like I said, kinda early on, part of it was planned, part of it wasn't , uh, but really happy to be in this space , uh, with all of you. So , um, so yeah, so that's how we all got here. Um, and , uh, but now let's talk a little bit about some of the issues that we all deal with , uh, in our various roles. So over here , uh, why don't we start with Rumley ? Maybe you can talk about some of the issues that you deal with. What are the major issues you're dealing with these days?
Speaker 4:Sure. So at Oscar, Oscar is pretty a , a unique company because it is the first health insurance company that was built on its own homegrown full stack technology. So it's really trying to stretch both being a technology company, but you leveraging technology in a way that can make member experience in accessing healthcare better, because there are so many tools and so many , uh, other forums in our life where technology has actually improved our life and ease of access, and it hasn't filtered into healthcare access really, in a meaningful way. And Oscar's really trying to push the boundaries of how we can do that better and specific . And really, right now we're one of the largest , uh, payers in the, in the , uh, ACA marketplaces. So bringing that to, to people who really need access and doing it in a culturally competent way. And so I feel what I get to do, and what's exciting about my job is that I get to represent a client who wants to be very innovative in a highly regulated space. And so I feel like my job and a lot of my energy is spent being a translator in the middle where I am talking with the regulators about what it is that my client wants to do, and trying to explain how what we're doing is in the service of member service and how we can better address community need and meet communities where they are. Um, but we're doing it in ways that, that regulators haven't often seen before. So we have to bring people along. And then likewise, I'm working within my client where we bring a lot of smart thinking from other, from other industries and saying , um, let's translate what you've experienced in other industries, and what do we have to do to make, to do that in a compliant way that works with , uh, works for healthcare. So I think a lot of where I spend my energy is, is being a translator in the middle.
Speaker 2:Okay. Great. Um, Juliet, I think that sounds like there's maybe some policy overlaps, maybe a little bit. What , what kind of things, what are the main issues you're dealing with in your capacity?
Speaker 5:Sure, sure. Uh, let's see. You know, I , I'll just say at a high level , uh, you know, we are a health advocacy, a health justice organization for Asian-Americans , native Hawaiian Pacific Islanders . Um, and then I just wanna ground us by highlighting in terms of racial and ethnic communities, you know , collectively we are the fastest growing community , uh, on a percentage wide basis. So I think all of us can relate to this, if we just take a half step back , um, when it comes to healthcare access and justice issues, ensuring information is available in a language that we all understand, even if English is your first language. If we can just hearken back to the early days of Covid. I dunno about everybody else. I thought I was pretty fluent in reading English notices, but I think we can all agree those covid notices in terms of what we should and don't have to do, it was still rather confusing. So I, you know , language access is always top of mind for us and some of our seminal toolkits and outreach efforts, believe it or not , uh, my organization, we make a commitment to translating our information into anywhere from 20 to 25 Asian native Hawaiian Pacific Island languages. So language is really important. Number two, covid has also amplified this, but even from a business perspective, an enforcement perspective, a fraud perspective, just overall good management, having disaggregated data with regard to patient care is so critical. So I wanna underscore disaggregated data. Um , if, if data's not disaggregated to take into account Asian Americans as well as native Hawaiians and Pacific Islanders, you don't know what you don't know. I've recently stated for the, for example, in the state of Florida and its public health agency, aa, NPIs were classified as other. And at the start of the day, as an American, I like to think I count a little bit more than just like, being, you know, bucketed into the category of other. So for all of us in these , this audience , uh, disaggregated , uh, data , uh, is always a top priority. Um, third, and I wanna say number three and 3.5 is what can systems, whether it's industry or government, federal, lo local, or even on the foundation side, what is the investment in healthcare and access for AA and H P I communities? I'll share one statistic, less than 1% of all philanthropic dollars are allocated towards the A and H P I communities, not healthcare , but just our communities. Last but not least , uh, this is absolutely top of mind with covid as a public health emergency, sun setting . Uh, a lot of our advocacy groups assist organizations, including my group, the impact, the devastating impact of Medicaid unwinding with the public health emergency coming to an end is absolutely paramount. 20 million moms get their healthcare through Medicaid. Almost 1 million AA NPIs are at risk of losing Medicaid of the children who are at risk of loo losing Medicaid because of the public health emergency coming to an edge of children on Medicaid, one 10th are native wines and Pacific Islanders. So hopefully, you know, thank you Steven , for your question. What's top of mind for us? But week to week , months to month , the impact of people losing Medicaid coverage is absolutely paramount because unfortunately, uncertain days, these are life and death situations. And I know collectively from a healthcare community perspective, we want to invest more on prevention and intervention measures. But I would be remiss if I did not highlight, you know, the impact of Medicaid unwinding right now. Thanks, Steven .
Speaker 2:Thanks Juliet . So Catherine , what about in terms of you, I mean, you're at a , at a law firm, you're representing, I think mostly providers. Um , so what are the kind of issues that you, so you're coming at this from a different perspective from I think Rum Lee and Juliet. So what kind of issues do you deal with in your role? Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yes, you're right. I do represent providers. Um, I represent health systems , uh, physician groups , um, provider-based health plans and air ambulance companies. But the provider , um, type that I think really , uh, dovetails with what the other speakers have mentioned are , um, a provider type called a federally qualified health center. And , uh, feldsman Tucker, this is one reason I joined them recently, is a nationally known firm for their representation of federally qualified health centers, which are , um, providers that qualified to receive grants from the federal government called Section three 30 grants. Juliette's probably very familiar with this from , um, hrsa , the Health Resources Services Administration to provide healthcare to medically underserved populations. And they also receive , um, uh, reimbursement from Medicaid to make su at a level that makes sure that , uh, the three 30 grant doesn't subsidize , um, med the Medicaid program. So they receive like special reinver reimbursement under Medicaid. Um, and as , uh, providers that serve the medically underserved, you know, the , the ultimate safety net provider, they would probably, you know, they, by taking a three 30 grant, they , um, guarantee that they will serve any patient that walks through the door regardless of , um, insurance status. So they see folks who are , who have no insurance, and for the people who might fall through the net with the changes that Juliet was describing, an F Q H C is a , you know, is a home for them. Um, but they are , you know, also heavily impacted by Covid . You know, it fell to them to try to vaccinate this population. Um, they're impacted by the ACA because that increased , uh, you know, the populations and challenges , um, that they face . They're heavily regulated. There's certain tensions with the government over , um, the rates that are paid , um, because it is a pretty significant , um, budgetary item for the federal government. There's issues involving this three 40 B program and , um, the drug discounts and how that's gonna be managed and distributed among the different players in that arena. Um, there's developments and delivery care where now there's , uh, I think, you know, overall a very positive push to do whole person care and more care coordination, but all that falls on the , uh, providers to, you know, develop the systems, manage the systems, figure out how they're gonna pay for the systems. Um, and then managed care is becoming , um, much more prevalent in the Medicaid arena. So now there're , there's an intermediary between the , um, providers and , uh, the state. So I, I , um, as Ramal mentioned, she feels like she serves as a translator often. I feel like that's my role often between regulators and the providers and also when we go to court between providers and the court system, because all of these systems are very complicated. Um, and, you know, you have to make sure the court understands, you know , uh, Steven , the foundations of what you're even talking about and, and you know, how, what all the mechanisms are and everything before you can get to the issue that you're really before the court to, to , um, argue. So , um, you know, I think that's part of the fun of being , uh, a lawyer and representing , um, these healthcare clients because they are very , um, complex and you really need to get to understand them in order to be able to effectively , uh, help them navigate the regulatory environment and the court systems.
Speaker 2:Okay, great. Um, I guess, and as for me, I come at this from a slightly different perspective , um, given my role, both when I was in the government and now that I'm out of the government, I'm usually coming at this more in the kind of the fraud waste and abuse side of things. And, you know, and just the reality is that Medicare and the health insurance system, there's a lot of money at stake here, a lot of money involved, and there are people who wanna take advantage of it and or there's a lot of people who, you know, make mistakes and it can end up costing the system a lot of money. Um, I guess the two big areas I think about in terms the big issues in my mind, one is just first of all, just the use of data. Uh, Juliet was talking about disaggregated data in one regard. Um , I just think that's a huge area where I think , uh, that for , for lawyers and I think lawyers need to appreciate more. Um, I think that the government is using more data analytics in order to kind of bind problems. Um , I also think a lot of providers out there do not understand how much data there is about their own practices. And I think that is something which providers need to get a better handle on because I think there are doctors out there who I think if they had known what their data showed about them, they would've, they could have avoided some serious problems. Um, there's at least a few doctors out there who I think could have avoided jail time if they had a better sense of how they looked to the government and what they were doing. Um, so that's one area that I think is just kind of a growing area as we go. The second I think is kind of like really understanding that this healthcare system is so complex that there's, and the government has different tools for dealing with fraud, waste, and abuse. And a lot of what I do deal with both when I was in the government and now that I'm out, is really figuring out what is the right tool for this particular problem. Um , criminal prosecution , uh, that is the most powerful tool the government has, but it's also in some ways the most difficult tool for the government to use because you have such a high standard of proof, you have to prove , uh, this element called willfulness showing that the person really knew what they were doing was illegal and did it anyway. And a lot of that would be really difficult. And the government has other tools that it can use, civil cases, administrative remedies. And so a lot of it is, I think both as the government and now I'm outside the government really is thinking like, what's the right tool to deal with this particular problem? Um, and so I think that's a big, that's a big aspect that I deal with a lot. Alright , so this month , uh, we're, we're recording this in May, 2023, and it's , uh, like every May, it's Asian Pacific American Heritage Month. And so I know I've been thinking a lot about how far we have come as Asian American lawyers or Asian American , um, you know, I think about a hundred, 150 years ago, Asian Americans actually couldn't be lawyers in some places. Um, and so it's pretty amazing how far we've come. Um, so just kind of throwing this out to the group , um, are there issues that you've experienced as an Asian American lawyer? And is there any advice you have for our listeners about how you've navigated these issues,
Speaker 3:I guess as sort of the senior member of the group? I can start. Um, so I , I , I guess I would like to just share some of the more subtle ways that being an A A P I and a woman , um, have affected me as a lawyer and the way I practice law. Um, so I first went to federal court in the late nineties, and I was very aware of being the only woman and the only A A P I attorney in the courtroom. And I felt tremendous pressure to do a good job to demonstrate that women and aaps were capable of being excellent lawyers. And , um, even though, you know, playing field has changed a lot, I still feel that pressure today, I have to admit. Um, and even though times have changed, as recently as a few years ago, I went to a meeting with clients of color and the clients of the other , um, white male attorney asked if , asked us if our attorney was coming, assuming that surely none of us, you know, was the attorney on the other side, <laugh> . So , um, I guess I would share, you know, there are a couple advantages of these assumptions. One is that you can look at it like the bar can be set lower for making a positive impression. Um, and another is that people can underestimate you. When I've even had opposing counsel say to me after trial, and , you know, I didn't expect it to be that formidable. So, you know, I do feel like we've come a long way, but I do feel like , uh, you know, Asian American , um, a p i lawyers and , uh, a A P I women lawyers are underrepresented in , um, the partnership of law firms and in a lot of , um, management and executive GC positions. So I do feel , um, like there is still a ways to go and , um, but I think, you know, if we all support each other and , uh, serve as role models for each other , um, it can make the path smoother for all of us.
Speaker 4:Thanks for sharing. Catherine. When we , um, when we talked last, I shared with you all that I had the experience at one of my past roles where I was gc I was meeting someone new for the first time and they said, oh, you're the gc, you don't look like the gc. Um, and uh, I know, I know that they did not mean that with the intent with which it landed. Uh, but it, I think for all of us who are used to being in rooms where there aren't that many people in the room who look like us, I, I certainly don't need reminding that I don't look like what people expect the general counselor or chief legal officer to look like. Um, but I think what, what it illuminated for me is that sometimes it's easy , uh, it's a balance. I think for me, in mentally, part of me thinks there are subconscious assumptions people make about us based on how we look. And sometimes I think, oh, that's a invisible hurdle I have to overcome in order to show that I've earned my seat at this table. But I also don't wanna let that get out of hand cuz some of that is like that imposter syndrome or whatever you wanna call it that's in my own head. Some of that is my own inner critic giving me a hard time. But then there are moments like that where I think, but there is a little, there is a tr a little nugget of truth that's still out there of unconscious bias that that is real that , uh, that we do all have to maneuver through. And I find I'm constantly calibrating not wanting to let that like inner critic voice be too powerful or, or have too dominant a place in my mind, but also giving credence to , we are still moving through , um, a lot of phases of inclusion and belonging and we're, we're not where, where we'd like to be. And so, and so some of that, I wanna give myself a little grace.
Speaker 2:Thanks Ram . Um, I guess for me, I've thought about , um, how far I've come and how far things have changed during my time as a lawyer. Uh, I remember when I started off , uh, after law school, I was at a big New York law firm and I remember one day realizing I'm the senior most , uh, Asian American lawyer at this law firm's litigation department. And this is a really big firm, and I was a mid-level associate. Um, and that's along with the case. Uh, there are lots, there are, look, there's not as many as I think we'd like to see, but there are a lot more Asian American partners , uh, at law people , law firms than there used to be. So I think we have made a lot of progress. Um, I do think one thing this helped , uh, and I've done more , more in recent years is getting involved with local bar associations, especially the Asian-American Bar Associations , um, especially, you know, groups and, and groups like this , uh, a H L a Naba , your local Asian American Bar Association. I think those are good resources for people to tap into. And, you know, there is a community there that you can build up, and especially for your younger lawyers, you know, these are the kind of connections that can, you know, make a difference in your career over the long run. So I think it's worth kind of investing that time and energy , um, when you can. Juliet , any thoughts on your end? Yeah,
Speaker 5:No, I'm just appreciating all these stories and I'm sure the audience has that many more to share. I mean, Stephen , picking up where you left off , I mean, I have to share , uh, I was really, really fortunate that after law school, after my judicial clerkship, doing a judicial clerkship for me was very, very intentional because I knew in my family I was the first attorney. And there are certain privileges of folks come from a background where you have had others in your family, whether this generation or previous, or you've got lawyers in your family. So I don't know if I can quite put it this way, this is gonna sound a little inelegant, but doing the judicial clerkship was also, you know, another way to get to know the law. Um , but also you get the chance to develop that special relationship with that , with the judge. And I just had so much, so much support from my judge even to this day as I've embarked on both on a legal and non-traditional legal career. Um, and Stephen , to your point, after the clerkship, I was fortunate enough where through the national Asian Pacific American Bar Association, there's a wonderful attorney by the name of Paul Lee who said, you know what I want , I wanna make sure we invest in a p i lawyers pursuing a public interest law career. And I actually happen to be the first civil rights fellow that Naba supported going, oh my goodness, this is like 20 plus or so years ago. I'm dating myself a little bit. Um , but I also did the, I took the time and the research , um, and the investment of time to get involved with the National Legal Aid Defenders Association and Catherine, like you highlighted, you know, there were not a lot of APIs . I love the Legal Aid Society community. I always give them props. And even to this day, I'm wistful to see more executive directors that are a APIs and executive directors that come from communities of color. I think the last story I wanna share , um, and we do this well as lawyers, you think about your litigation strategy. Should you be intentionally on the defensive side? Are there opportunities to preempt people's thinking or arguments? Um, and so I will say two more points. Um, for me, it , I really relished and enjoyed the space and took the time to become legally trained as a , as a certified mediator. I think that's a wonderful skillset that builds upon like what we already have within our D N A and number two, the story I wanna leave you with is when I was at Homeland Security , um, and as the chief of staff of US Citizenship and Immigration Services, my peers, so the chiefs of staff of like I C B P , secret Service Coast Guard at t s a , uh, guess what, I was the only one that was female and looked like this. And I went up to my peers and said, you know what? I have a real big issue to share with you. I'm the shortest person in this lot and I expect you all to help and support me and I will do what I can to support you back. So I do think in these sort of social political conversations with a small p I think there are different techniques, if not tactics to go at the issue of, you know, a few months ago somebody asked me would I serve them a cup of coffee because they just, I don't know , thought I was not a principal in the room. Um, so I do think this kind of space to talk about different tactics on how we show up as leaders and the , and the experiences we can share with the next generation, I think is critically important. So , uh, yeah, thank , thanks for this dialogue.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you Juliet. Um, so I think we've covered with actually a lot of, you know, thoughts and advice for kind of the younger attorneys out there, but kind of just going around , uh, does anyone, I just wanna go around and see yeah, what other , what are the kind of final closing thoughts you would have , uh, each offer for our listeners out there as they're starting off their careers? So ley , maybe start with you.
Speaker 4:Sure. Um, I think the one tip I've , uh, reflected on that served me well in my career has been not to be shy about the things you don't know. I think it's easy to want to build up your credibility by seeming like you really are on top of your game. But in my experience, owning and giving voice to the things that you don't know , um, has actually built the confidence of my clients because I'm confident in my ability to learn. So if I have the ability to say what it is that I don't know, it just means that I am , I'm out there learning everything and, and getting stronger. And in fact, it has built my credibility with my clients, with my board, and I think enabled me to take on more faster, because I, I don't find compunction with being able to say out loud, I don't know, but I'm happy to learn. So that's, that's my advice if your , for your career ,
Speaker 2:Um , you know, I, I tell this to a lot of my, my clients or my witnesses as I prep them , um, sometimes saying, I don't know, is the , are the hardest words for people to say, and I tell them all the time, look, if I don't know is the honest answer, it's better just to say it. And you know what? You can get yourself a lot of trouble if you , uh, if you say you know things when you don't know them . Um , so, but I think, yeah, I think that goes a long way. I think , uh, look, we're all human, we're all, you know, and sometimes like saying , I don't know, and I'm gonna find out is , is that's, that's , that is the proper answer and the best answer. Uh, Julian , how about , how about you?
Speaker 5:Yeah, so let me see, let me try to make this quick. I would say , uh, mentorship and sponsorship , um, even at this sa like be a mentor. Be a sponsor, and still be willing to be a mentee and a sponsoree. Uh, and, you know, 30 years into my career, that's where I'm at , um, pro bono work , um, as attorneys, I think that's a really special gift and talent we can give back to the community. Um , my pro bono work in years past focused on guardianship cases, both for minor children and senior adults especially facing , uh, you know, Alzheimer's in really ch tough , uh, life challenging situations. Uh, and lastly , uh, but not , uh, but equally important is coalition building and allyship, like being present, whether you say anything or not, but be, be willing to be that bridge that ambassador be willing to do , uh, the coalition building and allyship to other communities of color. Uh, Steven , you mentioned, you know, different bar associations. There are so many , um, and I I think that is another aspect that's really, really wonderful about the legal profession.
Speaker 2:Catherine.
Speaker 3:Yeah, on, on a more maybe personal , uh, level, I would just encourage everyone to always , um, treat everyone that you interact with, with respect. And I mean, not only judges, clients and partners and others with positions of power, but also, you know, the judges staff , uh, the staff of your clients, your staff. Um, it's being a lawyer doesn't make you an intrinsically, you know, better person or having more education or more prestigious position. And I think it's not only the right thing to do , uh, intrinsically and as leaders, but um, also our reputations are, you know, the most important things that we have and , um, uh, having staff , uh, can also make a staff can make a difference in how we do our job . So, as a practical matter, you know, if you're ever in a pinch , um, it, it comes in handy to , um, have good personal relationships with everybody. Um, the other thing I wanted to share was , um, a motto that I picked up actually at a , um, at the Sacramento Airport at a gift shop, I saw a little card and it said, life begins at the end of your comfort zone. And I realized that had sort of been the subconscious motto of my life and career. And so I actually bought a couple and framed them and they serve as a reminder , um, that , uh, you know, I think , um, it , it's, it's a way to , uh, a motto that can , um, provide you with an exciting and fulfilling career to just take a look at your comfort zone and , and be willing to take a step out of it to , to pick up a new challenge. Um, so that's what I invite people to , uh, consider adopting.
Speaker 2:All right . That's some amazing advice from , for everyone. Um, I guess I'm just gonna add one very little practical piece of advice just for very pragmatic, just one thing I tell basically every young lawyer that I talk to, or every law student I talk to, which is that, you know, given the age we're living in and given where things are going, if you don't know how to use a spreadsheet or Microsoft Excel or, or how do you look at data, you should try to spend some time learning in it now because so many lawyers don't know how to look at that stuff. And knowing how to do that will actually give you a competitive advantage. Um , I think in the long run, it's actually served me extremely well in the course of my career. Um , so , uh, that's just, just just something out , out there. And again , with healthcare, we're data is such a huge part of it nowadays. Um, so thanks to everyone. This has been , I hope you've all enjoyed this panel. I think we've all had a great time being here talking to all of you. Um, let's see. Thanks again to the American Health Law Association and to the National Asian Pacific American Bar Association for hosting us here. Uh, thanks a lot. Hope you have a good rest of the day.
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