AHLA's Speaking of Health Law
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AHLA's Speaking of Health Law
Bridging the Gap: Early Career Professionals in the Health Law Industry
Alé Dalton, Partner, Bradley Arant Boult Cummings LLP, speaks with Mara Smith-Kouba, Counsel, Bristol Myers Squibb, and Avery Schumacher, Associate, Epstein Becker & Green PC, about the experiences and challenges of Millennial and Gen Z health law professionals. They discuss the takeaways from a survey of early career professionals by Major, Lindsey & Africa, harnessing and supporting the power of mentorship, recognizing changing priorities and values around work culture and hybrid work environments, and sustaining a diverse and inclusive workforce. They also discuss the work of AHLA's Early Career Professionals Council and how to become more involved. Alé is the current Chair of AHLA’s Early Career Professionals Council, and Mara and Avery are past Chairs. From AHLA’s Early Career Professionals Council.
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Speaker 2:This episode of A HLA speaking of health law is brought to you by a HLA members and donors like you. For more information, visit american health law.org.
Speaker 3:Hey everyone, we are so excited to bring you a special podcast episode with the current and past chairs of the Early Career Professionals Council, and we also wanna share our unique perspectives on the topic of bridging the gap between the generations when it comes to working with early career professionals. Um, we'll get started with Mara Smith, Cuba , who is the past , past <laugh> chair of the Early Career Professionals Council. I'm not sure what the official title would be at this point. Mara, would you mind telling us a little bit about the years that you served , um, on the council and what you currently do in HLA?
Speaker 4:Absolutely. So thank you for having me on here. Um, I have been involved in a HLA since I was a third year law student, so I really, before I was even a lawyer , um, I started in the Early Career Professionals Council , which is at the time was the young professionals. We had some rebranding , uh, recently, but I started there in 2017 and worked as the law student representative, I think is what they called it at the time. And then I transitioned to a regular role where I was on committees and then was a vice chair , and then was a chair. And then after that, <laugh> became the board delegate to the board of directors. And now I am part of the Life Sciences Practice group, where I serve there as a vice chair . So it has been a journey , um, with a HLA, basically my entire, actually, prior to my career, actually even starting.
Speaker 3:Excellent. Thank you. And we also have Avery Schumacher, who is the past president or past chair rather, of the Early Career Professionals Council . Um, Avery, when did you start serving on a HLA and what is your current seat in A HLA?
Speaker 5:Yeah , thanks Ally . Thanks for having me. Um, I started at a HLA in 2017. I had a fellowship out of law school with the health system, and they sent me to Fundamentals. And that was my first conference. I actually attended that conference three times , um, three years in a row. And I've gone multiple other times, but haven't sat in for the sessions. Um, but I'm sure I could co , I could use a refresher now that it's been a couple years. Um, so fundamentals was my first experience. And then I got on the Early Career Professionals Council in my second year of practice. And similar course to Mara started, I actually started as social media coordinator, and then I was a work group member, pro , um, work group leader. Then I was a vice chair chair, and now I am actually the, the board delegate. Um, and so that's, that's my current experience to date in a HLA.
Speaker 3:Thank you. And my name is Ally Dalton, and I have the pleasure of serving this year as the chair of the Early Career Professionals Council . Have to fill in some really big shoes, <laugh> left by Mara and Avery. Um, and had gotten to work with Avery and Mara in , uh, young Professional Council . Then when we became the Early Career Professionals Council . And also my first experience with A HLA with getting sent to Fundamentals. Um, my firm usually sends folks who are first year associates are new to the Healthcare Practice Group, and I think it's maybe my favorite a LA conference. And we'll talk about that think later in the episode. Okay. So what, what is Early Career Professionals Council , formerly known as Young Professionals Council , and who is it for? Um , Mara, do you wanna share a little bit , um, about Early Career Professionals Council and some of the rebranding, maybe anything that you wanna share about how folks , um, who it's for and how folks can get involved?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean, I think there are a lot of different benefits for it. Um, I think the Early Career Professionals Council , and part of the rebrand was that it used to be known as the Young Professionals Council . But what it really is good for, and I think Avery mentioned this just a minute ago, is that it's really good for people who are new, and I think you did Ally as well, like, who are new to health law. So that can be an early career professional, or it can be somebody who is new to the space, who is in a new practice group who is with a health system. Because what it does is it really provides the fundamentals of like the conference of health law . So you're not looking at some of the more complex topics. I think a lot of times there are very nuanced once you get into a specialty of different practice groups and places that you can go. But the Early Career Professionals Council does a great job of providing resources and providing connections within the health law community in a way that's really helpful to, in introducing it , introducing you to the community, and helping you figure out which silo , um, you, you would be best fit for as you develop in your career.
Speaker 3:Avery , I'd love to know how serving in the Early Career Professionals Council , not just as the chair, but when before you were in that role, how it shaped your career and helped you to get to where you are today.
Speaker 5:Yeah. Um, I will get into that, but I did wanna , um, circle back on a point that I think now would be a good time to make in terms of the distinction between early career professionals within A HLA and Early Career Professionals Council . So the council, yes, the council has like a certain number of members to it. I think it's 12. Um , and the role of the council is to coordinate and facilitate opportunities for engagement of early career professionals within A HLA. So sometimes here we're referring to like the Early Career Professionals Council, but really the whole role of the ECPC is to coordinate opportunities for all early career professionals. Though it's not really exclusive like we or the council is looking for ways to plug in ECPs that are not on the council somewhere in A HLA and, and to facilitate that involvement. Um, so just wanted to , to make that point. 'cause I know it is, it's confusing. There's a lot going on. There's a lot of acronyms , um, within health , like within health law in general and within
Speaker 3:HLA <laugh>
Speaker 5:And within a HLA , it's , we are not an exception. Um, but in terms of my experience on the Early Career Professionals Council and how that has served me in my career , um, it's limitless. Honestly. It has definitely helped me grow as a leader. One, because I have gotten to watch like amazing leaders before me. I got to learn from Mara before I stepped into the, the her shoes as the chair. And then I've also gotten to work with the substantive practice groups as an early career professional , um, and, and then learn from the leadership within those practice groups, like the medical staff committee or medical staff credentialing and peer review practice group who I got plugged into pretty early on. And through that , uh, I was able to to find some kind of mentors that have , um, I've stuck with and they've stuck with me for the last six years. And, and also now I'm starting to mentor others and that's allowing me to, to build that muscle and, and to really grow. So I have gotten to, to learn by watching and then also learn by doing coordinating meetings, planning webinars. I think one of our first experiences together, Allie was planning a series , uh, in connection with the Women's Leadership Council. And just having that experience like a couple times, then it's like I felt like I could like run with it and do it in a number of other , um, in a number of other settings within my firm and with clients and just in general in my legal career. So it's been wonderful. I've made really great connections and learned a lot.
Speaker 3:What an excellent pitch for joining the <laugh> ECPC and supporting our ECPs. And I think you made such a great point, Avery, that I think we get this question a lot, or honestly, people are sometimes scared to ask this question , um, as to, you know, kind of what's the difference between our early career professionals and where does, where do they exist in the ecosystem of the early Career Professionals Council? And I just wanna reiterate that we are here to serve our early career professionals and also to kind of be that bridge between practice groups or other folks who are interested in harnessing the power and excitement and all the skills that the early career professionals have in A HLA to be able to further the mission of A HLA. Um, which kind of is a great segue into , um, the rest of our conversation. And what we really wanted to do was not just make a very solid pitch for joining the ECPC and those efforts, but also to help folks , um, understand some of the challenges and experiences of early career professionals. Which for purposes of this conversation, we're kind of using the bucket of , um, millennials and Gen Z lawyers that there's sort of not a perfect , um, not everyone , um, that is in that bucket fits in early career and vice versa. But we are finding them , most of our early career professionals are within those first 10 years of practice. And that tends to overlap with some of those age groups. And the three of us are millennials, but <laugh> share a lot of things with our Gen Z colleagues. And so some things to remember about the folks in the early career professionals , um, bucket are a lot of them grew up during the Great Recession. They spent a meaningful part of their education or early career, either fully remote or hybrid due to the pandemic. Some of them graduated into the pandemic and faced a lot of challenges related to finding roles in the pandemic. Um, but aside from those, there are some things that we're finding that are challenges that are commonly faced by them. And one of the really great surveys to come out in recent years is the survey by major Lindsay in Africa that surveyed Gen Z lawyers. And it was mostly in the context of , um, the law firm space , but there are a lot of truths that can be pulled out from it. And it is just a goldmine for anyone working with early career professionals. And the , one of the biggest takeaways that they had was how formal mentorship and training tied competitive compensation as the most important factor for Gen Zers in selecting an employer, which is wild. Um, related to this, they also reported that an open door environment and informal day-to-day training were highly motivating factors for these early career professionals. Um, Mara or Avery, can you all share a little bit about your experience? I think Avery, you touched on it a little bit of the mentorship opportunities that you had through A HLA , um, but just generally how can we help folks harness this desire for formal mentorship? Like how can we be good mentors and have organizations that value this so that we can create spaces that are better suited to the early career professionals?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean, I'm happy to jump in a little bit and share my experience. So I did, I think very similar to Avery. Mentorship was a huge element that kept me in a HLA and kept me involved both from a formal and informal perspective. So I had the formal mentorship relationship, which was great because they place you with somebody in your, they met you with somebody who's local to you, and it's obviously in the health law field. And so that was an individual for me who was a general counsel of a major health system. And he gave me incredible advice. And I think a lot of it too is the willingness to use it. Um, and so seeing the resources and being willing to reach out for the kind of help and the kind of questions that you're navigating at different career points and and weighing those. Um, but as you mentioned there, I think there are a lot of people who aren't sure what things to be considering and what things to be weighing. So that's a really good resource for a lot of different people who have had very different career paths. I think the other thing is just going to things like fundamental. You meet people who are at different stages of their career, serving on committees, doing volunteer, doing podcasts or whatever it is that you can do to get involved. There are lots of opportunities to meet people who are at different stages of their careers and figure out how to, how to again, harness the opportunities there. So I think on the, the back, I don't think that anybody, unless you're, I mean, even if you're retiring, I think that there's always an opportunity to both have a mentor and be a mentor for the people that have come before you , um, and the people that are coming after you. And I think that one of the ways that we can as millennials or as a younger generations is be a , be willing to be that resource. But I think also some of the best advice that I got was candid advice. It was people saying things that were not the things written in the articles or weren't the things that were really nuanced information, particularly in the health law space of things that were topics that were really hot issues or topics that were going to be hot issues or things to watch out for in the space. And I think that that was a really, the more honest feedback that you provide, I think the better mentor mentee relationship that you have. 'cause I think there's a lot of people who will meet for coffee and they'll have a coffee date and, and that will be that. But I think particularly in the health loss space, sometimes having really candid conversations about what the industry looks like, what challenges are happening right now , um, what roles you should or shouldn't take , um, looking at the industry is really helpful.
Speaker 5:Yeah ,
Speaker 3:I agree. What about you, <laugh> ?
Speaker 5:Yeah , I echo a lot , lot of what Mara is saying. Um, that all really resonates. I have had informal mentorship relationships at A HLA, which have been invaluable. Sometimes it's just nice to have someone that isn't your employer, a mentor that isn't in your employer that , um, might give you some advice or, or think about it a different way. Um, and , and in a way that maybe your employer wouldn't, wouldn't purposely present to you differently, but they're going to have some implicit biases that maybe they're not even aware of when they're giving you advice. So it's just nice to have another perspective , um, that's not tied to your paycheck. Um, and then, and in that sense, like, so my A HLA informal mentorships have really helped me get into networking, like going to these conferences. It could just be an associate that is a couple years , um, uh, my senior that has just gone to a couple more conferences than me and, and I can hang. And that, that was my experience, the first couple fundamentals that I went to. And now I am happy to be that , um, conference buddy for fundamentals for anybody else. So really any other A HLA conference , um, to attend those networking events and really get some to get the most out of those relationships. Um, and then now I'm at the point where I have a couple formal mentees through the A HLA mentorship program. So if you guys haven't heard of that yet, if the listeners have not heard of that or are not participating in it yet , um, it's a great program. I encourage you to sign up and you'll be paired with mentors or mentees and it'll give you an opportunity to to flex muscles both ways.
Speaker 4:I think that point that you mention it , like in terms of the, a couple years more senior and having somebody outside your firm that, I just wanna note it , using mentors for resume review and cover letter review is such a underrated resource. I think. Um, I had a couple of people from A HLA when I was looking to transition roles, looking at my resume to make sure that it highlighted the things that they thought were important when they were in hiring positions, which is nice to have that flip side of when you haven't been in that role, a mentor can give you a perspective that you might not have. So that's just a plug for a really simple way to utilize a mentor relationship that's not like I'm asking you for all of this advice and I need you to do this for me, but can you just help me with my resume? It's something that I think is some, a way that I use them in in my early career.
Speaker 3:Great. Mara, and that's actually a really great segue into the next point. One of the other things that this survey flagged really highlights the changing priorities that are re reshaping the landscape of the legal profession and what it means for law firms and legal organizations as they kind of build their ranks, but also hope to keep these folks in place. Long-term and only 23% of the Gen Z survey participants , um, anticipated pursuing law firm partnership as a long-term career goal. And I know that that is not a number, at least for the folks at firms , but I'm sure legal organizations that we want to hear because we hope that the folks we're investing in will kind of do what we did and buy in and stay long-term . But the reality is that some of these folks are either choosing different roles because it , it fits better for their families or their lifestyles or they are just interested in changing things up. Um, and we see that time and time again with folks getting, you know, even things that are quickly developing in the field. I'm sure that folks who graduated five years ago might not have thought that there were AI health lot positions, and I'm sure the folks who are coming in 10 years will wonder, what do you mean that wasn't a thing back then? And so it is really interesting how that kind of all placed together. Um, but I would love to talk Mara a little bit more about your experience as someone who has an in-house role, but also has, you know, worked in different settings before. Um, can you share a little bit more about your role? And also, I know your employer has a direct entry program in-house, which is something that is newer. We did not see that even just a few years ago, and I know that that's something that y'all are really proud of.
Speaker 4:Absolutely. So I'll say that I did , uh, less than two years at a law firm and decided that was not the fit for me <laugh> . So I , I can, maybe I'm more of a Gen Z than I wanna believe <laugh> , but so for me it was just not the kind of lifestyle and the kind of legal practice that I was looking to do. I was really interested in an in-house role pretty early on and knew that I wanted to stay focused in healthcare. Um, but so I think that there are, as you were saying, these balances, right? What kind of lifestyle, what kind of practice? For me, I really wanted a bit more of the business aspect of it. I had a business background and so for me it was really important to be somewhere where I was giving lots of business advice and understanding the business from a legal perspective and vice versa. But like you said, one of the really cool things about my company is that they also recognize that the path through law firm is not necessarily what everybody wants to do. And so we've created a direct entry program which allows students or their early career, so they may be new lawyers or just graduated, but haven't taken the bar or somewhere in between . Um, but it creates a rotational program in which you spend a couple of months and in different places in the company, in different part portions of the law department. And then at the end, the goal is to find a role that you feel is a good fit and that they feel is a good fit for you so that you're going directly into the in-house role, which again, like you said, there are, there have traditionally been you , you spend seven years or nine years and you become partner and then you move in-house. And I actually had a conversation with one of our early career , um, professionals at one point and explain to her as we were talking that if this is what you wanna end up doing, it's not a bad place to start. And I think that's a transition that if a lot of young, like Gen Zs are not interested, know that they're not interested in the law firm route or becoming a partner, it's good to have the conversation of where do you think that you want to end up because you can't, there are so many great skills that you learn from a law firm, right? There's, even if you don't wanna end up being partner, I think that like you both can talk about the incredible skill sets that you learn from being a law firm lawyer. And I think that that can't be understated. But if you have opportunities to go in-house early on, and that's what you feel like your goal is, that a lot of times I say, look at , there are a lot of people here who spent many years at the law firm and ended up here. So you don't necessarily need to like check boxes as much as you need to find the right fit for your professional , um, career goals.
Speaker 3:That's really helpful. And Avery, I know your experience, you touched on it briefly a little bit ago, but you had this fellowship that kind of gave you a little bit of a taste of what it was like to be at a health with stem . You're now a firm lawyer and have, you know, seen a few things in between. Um, would you mind sharing a little bit about how you've made those jumps and those decisions? I think that we've talked about this before, but I'm, I'm the person on this podcast who's been with the same employer since I was a one l my first summer of law school. Um, and I have loved it , uh, became partner earlier this year, which is really exciting. And so for me, I, I feel like it , it worked and it was a really good alignment fit, but what we're finding is if that's really the big thing folks are when this generation cares a lot about the work that they're doing, being , being meaningful to them from day one and not just, you know, when they reach a certain goal or a certain permission. So I'd love to know Avery , um, a little bit more about your career path and kind of how you've made those jumps and what you've loved about it and the experience kind of both in-House and at Affirm .
Speaker 5:Yeah, thanks Ally . Um, so I would have been part of that statistic, the, the 23% , um, that thought that they were not interested in being a partner at a law firm. But that has changed, I guess spoiler alert I should say. Um, so I started out , uh, in a fellowship straight out of law school. So it was in-house, a one year position, and it , I was in-house and, and was hoping that I would develop relationships there and just get to skip the, you know, the traditional couple years of a private practice that you hear about all the time, although there's always those unicorn jobs. Um, but lo and behold, at the end of the fellowship, they loved me. Um, but they were very serious about the, the getting the couple years of experience at a law firm before going in-house. So what I did get out of that fellowship though, was I, I was working in a large health system and they had a number of different firms that they used, and that gave me an opportunity then to like compare the different firms in a way that I was in no position to do as a third year law student. So , um, so that was a wonderful experience. It was great to learn about how in-house departments , um, function and, and then to be able to contrast that against working in a law firm. So then I went to a firm and I fell in love with Firm life. I then was at a law firm for four years. And then , um, and, and I wanna also backtrack a little bit to say I got a master's in health administration and then I did that fellowship too. So I still really had it in the back of my head that maybe going back in house was something I wanted to do. Um, but then after I had been at my firm for a few years , uh, the majority of the healthcare department at that firm left and joined the national firm that I am at now. So that's Epstein Becker Green . And that seemed like the time for me to go ahead and try out in-house again because I had, you know, spent the last four years developing my brand, my reputation at that firm. And I can either start over at this new firm , um, or I could spend a couple years at the firm and then go in house , but it just seemed like the time was right to go ahead and explore that opportunity. I went in house and , um, and I did not , um, the position wasn't a good match for me. Um, it wasn't , uh, what I thought it would be when I was an actual, you know, attorney, licensed attorney , um, functioning in that role. And I do, I did have a couple of a HLA mentors that I could talk through the decision to go back to my firm with, which was really wonderful because I did obviously didn't wanna talk to anybody at my current job. I didn't wanna talk to anybody , anybody at my old firm about it yet, and, and get people , um, false hope or excited, excited about it. Yeah, <laugh> excited
Speaker 3:To have you back,
Speaker 5:Right? But I , but I also, it's one of those things where it's like, I've only been gone six months and you hear like, you should be somewhere for a year or two years and sometimes you get this external feedback and what it might look like and what does this mean? And then having some , um, disconnected , um, but experienced mentors and resources in A HLA to help me think through what it would actually mean was, was amazing. And now I am back at my firm, I've been , um, with my firm for a couple more years now, and I see like partnership as like I, I'm all in. Um, and , and , and this works for me. So, and, and I appreciate ALA's , um, role in my journey.
Speaker 3:Thanks for sharing that and for making it okay to show or to show folks that it is okay to make those decisions that can feel scary at the time. But , um, it all sort of tends to work out really well if you have good guidance and, and you know, you , you sort of know what you're about and find employers that really cherish and celebrate that. And I'm , um, your friend would be lucky to have you as a partner. Um, okay, y'all , let's move on to one of the other things that comes up a lot and I think folks , um, listening might wanna <laugh> hide when we bring this up because it's a very hot topic, but this is about remote work flexibility and the hybrid world that we live in. And so I think acknowledging that, you know , we are sort of this bridge, I think we see both sides. We talked about this before, we talked about this with our early career professionals, how it is really great that, you know, post 2020 we have this flexibility where some folks are working entirely remotely, but a lot of us have some kind of hybrid set up , um, where we're both in the office and then also working from home. And so I think it'd be helpful for us to touch a little bit on, you know, the survey mentions that Gen Z would actually willingly, 62% of them would willingly give up part of their compensation for either more time off or a more flexible schedule. And some of this touches on the hybrid and flexibility that employers are providing. And Mara , I would love for you to touch on what you always like to remind folks on that there's a key here of building a reputation early on, especially as you take advantage of these perks or even if you work entirely remotely. Like how do , how are we able to balance both of the things that, you know, different generations want out of this one? <laugh> ?
Speaker 4:Yes, I , again, I'm nervous. Um, I don't want anybody to hate me on either side of this generation, so I'm gonna try to stay middle of the road <laugh> . Um , so I, I as mentioned earlier, I see both sides of it, but I think that one of the things is that at this point in our career, I think all of us have some flexibility in the work that we do. We have the ability to go to doctor's appointments if we have to, to take vacations, if we're going to, to , to really have that capacity to shut off in the way that we need to when we, when we need to recharge. And I think that that's something that is very easy to understand from a Gen Z perspective and why they appreciate that, why they value the time off , um, why they value the flexible working. I think the part of it that we all did is that we established reputations really early on for being hard workers, being available and, and knowing our stuff. I think that a lot of it comes down to the benefits of being in person or the benefits of being available in , in a more standard work schedule. Workday schedule is that you're able to become a sponge, which I think is the best thing that I did as , um, a young attorney was just learn from the people around me. And again, I was in a time where I was in the office all of the time, but there was so much benefit to learning from more senior attorneys learning, being able to get an example from someone instead of having to feel this anxiety of who do I ask, who do I go to? Um, there really was a benefit of saying, oh, just go talk to this person. They're here today. Um, there was a lot of being a sponge and learning a lot that I could then use that to go and figure out the more strategic ways that I needed to learn, the more strategic places that I needed to fill in gaps in my knowledge, in my networking , um, who didn't I know at the company and or at the firm and how would I go about it. Um, so I think that that was one thing that in , in order to be able to embrace the flexibility, there had to be some establishment of I know this person will get the work done. I know this person knows where to find the right answers. I don't have to handhold completely. Um, and I think that there's also just the benefit of if you wanna be partner, if you want to be considered for a promotion, if you want to be involved in your company or your firm or wherever it is, you want people to know who you are. And I think that it , whether it's in a virtual world or not, it's making those connections and being intentional about it. So if you're gonna be in the office in a hybrid schedule, have the coffee with the person, see if they're around to schedule an in , if there's an in-person meeting or a meeting that you think everybody might attend, maybe message some people and say, oh, why don't we all go to lunch during that meeting or after that meeting and so that we can watch this CLE together. This seems like it's on our topic area, find opportunities. Because again, I think there is such a huge value to having the flexible work schedule and having the ability to shut off. But I think a lot of it also comes from number one, when you're early in your career, you, you do have to put in that time and whatever that looks like, but you have to put in the time we, I think we mentioned earlier, you have to know that if you're, you're having a hair appointment at four 30 and there's a an important client meeting, sometimes you have to cancel the hair appointment at four 30 to be available for your clients. Like, but sometimes you have to go pick a friend up from the airport and it's okay that you do that during the middle of the day because you're gonna work later and get the work done. So I think establishing the reputation for that and also making it known that you're willing to come into the office or be present when that's helpful.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I think that was a really good point that you made about when you are in or there are those activities going on in the office, scheduling more things around that. Because once you are at that point and you're a couple years in and you have more freedom and maybe can , um, spend more days working from home, folks won't notice as much if you, when you're in the office, make your presence very known and felt, then they just won't even notice that you weren't, you came in two days for five weeks in a row instead of the firm required three days because you made your presence very known for like the two days that you were there. Um, and it can help you like get away with more, I guess so to speak, but you're not really getting away with more. You're just, you're just doing it differently. Um, but one once, I think that's a good way to kind of, to , to kind of game it in a way that works for both , um, people that are on both ends that want see you in the office and then that, that want to work from home.
Speaker 3:And I will say on the more for folks, I mean, I think we're kind of, we're quickly counting down our days in the early career cohort , <laugh> , um, folks are putting us in charge and things are happening. And I think as we cross over to the other side , um, I do think it's so important to see how, how firms and organizations are doing this really well. So I think if you are at an organization or in a position to supervise or arrange the schedules or in some way dictate for certain folks on your team to be places certain times or whatever the policy might be, I think that similar to what we're encouraging the early career professional folks to do, we would encourage you to consider how can you maximize that time together? Because , uh, at least in my experience in speaking with a lot of early career professionals and, and even summer interns at at plate legal employers, it seems to be like you are expected to be , uh, in the office, you know, three times a week or whatever it might be, but then no one who you can be a sponge with is there because they are, you know, they're self-sufficient and can work from wherever. And so I think there's also a concerted effort that should be made on that side. Not necessarily to, you know, bring everyone in all the time, but maybe if your practice group picks two days where most folks , uh, are encouraged, highly encouraged to work in the office and maybe there's a lunch involved or something where you can really maximize those opportunities because at least what I have found is, let's be honest, we all wanna be at home with our pets and our stretchy pants . Like that's sort of the baseline. But I do think realistically, we all understand the value of it and we all learned, I think all of us started our career, you know, pre 2020. So like we really know what the world is like fully in office every single day of the week. And I think that part of that benefit was really having the other folks to learn from in, in, you know, our departments and our firms. And so I would definitely encourage you, even if you're not in charge, if you supervise early career professional, make it a point to just have those connection points where when they're in the office, they feel like their efforts are being rewarded and that they're able to have that community. Because I think that's also part of that, you know, big thing that they pointed out, caring about open door cultures and having that mentorship like that doesn't happen in a vacuum. And if you're young and you show up and no one's there, you're in a little bit of a vacuum. So everyone wins on this one, I think <laugh> .
Speaker 5:Yeah , something else we can, something else we can remember is just that , um, if we stick around and, and you know, stay in the legal profession, which I think that we will everyone on this call , um, that we will be the leaders one day. And, and then, so some of it is just, you know, doing what we can to bridge the generational divide while it exists. And then in 10 years if we still feel like our way is the right way and we're the leaders, then, then we can implement it. So, I mean, there's gotta be some compromises now, but at the same time it's um, what we'll live, learn, and implement what we see working eventually.
Speaker 4:Exactly. And I think there's like a big component of the reach back , right? I think like the creating spaces, if you're not gonna be in person for people to ask the questions and for people. 'cause I think that yeah, in , in any, not any young lawyer, but I think it's harder as a young lawyer to ask the hard questions and to ask for more from somebody. Um, so being aware of that.
Speaker 3:Okay , so our last point that we have from that survey was the vast majority of the Gen Z respondents about 79% mentioned in some capacity that sexism or lack of diversity in the legal profession remains a problem. Though they do, 69% of them felt like things are changing for the better. So that is, I guess the, the good side of that. I would love to know whether it's something that your employer does or HLA or both, what have you seen that is encouraging you on the changing faces of what the, you know, legal profession looks like, especially in the health loss space, but also how can we further those things, whether we're early career professionals or folks who work with early career professionals?
Speaker 4:I mean, I can say that I am very, very lucky in my company that my entire direct line from me to our general counsel is female. Um, which is not to say that I haven't had amazing male leaders, but it's really, I think, rare in a profession where this is sort of the number that people feel is sexism still exists to have a law department that is led by female leadership and that is really championed all the way up. So I think that that has very much helped shift how I feel about it and what I also think is important, but I I, one of the main things that I've seen very much through A HLA and through other elements in my life is just the sponsor idea, right? And I think we've talked about this a lot in a different, a lot of different spaces, but having somebody who's in the room where you are not , um, that is advocating for you, and I have had amazing , um, there's a former chair of the ECPC and he is always using my name in rooms that I'm not in, and I trust him with my life. I always say if he said jump into a bridge, I would say, all right , which bridge , um, <laugh>. But I think that having those sponsors in whatever capacity that is , um, who are advocating for you and, and also being those sponsors, because we're in a position and as you said, we're moving to the other side, which is scary <laugh>. Um, but being the people who can advocate, and I know this is also one that makes people kind of cringe a little bit, but I think having people that are willing to talk about salary that are a couple years older than you, and I think it's not a fun conversation to have and it doesn't always make employers or individuals happy. Um, but I think that it's really a way , one of the best advocates I've had has been somebody who is about two roles ahead of me and has shared his salary at different points , um, because it lets you know what sort of the market rate is and what you should be asking for. And I think that that's really helpful, even just from mentors outside of your company, what does their compensation look like? Are you on the market in an appropriate way and are you being valued the way that you deserve to be for your level? I think nobody likes to, to bring up the topic of salary, but I think that it's one way that we really do push this forward is have those conversations.
Speaker 3:That's a really practical , uh, piece of advice, Mara, for sure. And I will echo the same thing with you. Um, I have lots of great mentors who are male mentors, but my practice group has always skewed very female. And , um, at this point in our sort of mix of people, we have a lot of young working parents , um, usually dual career households, and that is just a different dynamic than the folks who came before us. And I have found that to be something that has really helped in us keeping and fostering and promoting working parents, not just women, but other working parents in part because I do think some of the younger generations have access and are taking , um, advantage of things like parental leave policies that apply both to birthing parents and non-birth parents, and just so many things that go with the dynamics of being a working parent, which I know not everyone is, but for us, that's been huge. And when folks ask like , how , how have you done this <laugh> ? The answer is just really pointing at the people who came before us who have, you know, kind of paved that, that path. And I've been a , you know, a great beneficiary of a lot of those policies and things that have changed throughout the years. So I think that , um, you know, my encouragement to employers would certainly be to consider how their groups can better reflect this younger generation, whether that's like lateral hiring or promoting from within . Like we meet people who folks can look up to and say, like, that, that person has my shared experience and because of that I feel like I can be here long term or, you know, really succeed here. And I, I think that folks sometimes , um, can kind of underestimate the power of that. I think that, that that can really multiply things for the better for sure.
Speaker 4:And I think just to jump on that point again, that you mentioned, I once had a colleague who said that the best thing he can do as an advocate is to take his parental leave so it doesn't become a female thing. And I had never thought of it like that as a , a PowerPoint of advocacy as somebody who, what they could do. But I thought that was incredibly powerful. And something exactly like you mentioned, taking parental leave is just something that normalizes it as a parent thing, not as a female thing. And I just thought that was something that was a huge advocacy point that I had never considered.
Speaker 5:It's , it's amazing that that is something that is becoming a norm in the legal community. Like one, it allows the, the men to then support the women while bonding, bonding with the child, and then they can also be home and so their woman can go out and, and continue to be a part of the workforce. Um, and then also when a partner is looking at someone the same age, male and female aren't seeing like, well, this one's probably about to leave for three months at any , any moment now either of them are about to leave for three months and they should because it's important to a sustainable career in , um, in the legal in , well in any industry, honestly. Um , <laugh> . But, but I have also been , um, spoiled and I think that it's been nice to, to hear that it's been a similar experience for you guys in terms of having strong female leaders in , um, in , in your legal experience. And I also have , um, my mentor who has turned into my sponsor , um, is a male. And , um, and, and it is great then to have that sponsorship from him, but then to also have mentorship and sponsorship from the strong females in my life. Um, and , and have just helped to navigate a lot of problems that way.
Speaker 3:Thank y'all so much. Okay. As we wrap it up, I would love to know what, I know we talked a lot about a thi about a lot of things today, but what is one piece of advice that you would give early career professionals entering the legal profession today, or anything, whether it's something you would say to younger you or folks who are coming in, what, what partying notes do we have for them? Mara, do you wanna kick us off?
Speaker 4:Sure. So, all right , I have two. I have one that's really practical and then I have a bigger <laugh> , like a more general philosophical one. So I think what I would say is specialized within whatever for like a very practical one is even if you start out generally being interested in health law , find to the thing that you're excited about, that you're interested in and specialized, because I, I think that when you hit a certain point, it , it's very easy to be a generalist when you're coming into the profession. And I think it's exciting to learn everything, but I think that there is a huge amount of value to specializing in something. Um, and and being able to build your interests and your volunteer opportunities and your profession around the thing that you've specialized in. So that there, that there is something that you can go and talk about very practically , um, that's not just the general, we love the fundamentals, we love the one oh ones, but that you'll need a special skillset so that when somebody is looking for a role, they know this is what you do and they know this is what you're about. And then just the more general theoretical, philosophical is be bold , um, like be bold in your career and take control of it. I think that sometimes it's easy as a younger professional to feel like everybody had it figured out and that everybody already knew exactly what they were going to do and was involved. But if there are things that you're interested in, if there are people you wanna talk to, if there are things that you hope to learn more about, be bold, talk to people, join groups, pursue it actively. Um, I think that it's very easy to go about and do your work and do it well. But I think that being bold and taking control of your career is really gives you a feeling of empowerment , um, and allows you to have something that you're really proud of.
Speaker 3:I love that . A agree .
Speaker 5:Yeah. I, I have a couple as well and, and one kind of is a , the counter to, or not the counter, but uh , just something to keep in mind with Mara's first point as well. When you're specializing and finding , um, finding what is exciting for you , um, don't be afraid to pivot If it's something that you think was gonna be exciting and then maybe you spent a year doing it and it, if you have the , that you like the people around you, you'll, you like the organization you're at. But whatever that niche that you got in is, is draining your soul and it is no longer exciting. Don't just try to stick it out until you can't take it anymore and you just have to leave that organization , um, speak up. 'cause there may be a way for you to completely pivot. Stay with those folks, stay with the organization that you like , um, and , and don't be afraid , um, to pivot once you start going down , um, a path that doesn't actually , um, please you anymore. And then the second point would just be to be deliberate with relationship building. I think that's something that I have done since the start and I had done that in a HLA and I have done that , um, in, at my firm , um, and in other places. And there have been no negatives to, to being deliberate and , um, diligent about keeping up with people , um, and and building genuine relationships with them .
Speaker 3:Love these <laugh> .
Speaker 4:I agree, I agree with Avery completely . Like I very much so don't make yourself miserable 'cause you've picked something to specialize in. And I think one thing that we can probably all agree on is that you can enjoy your career. Yes, <laugh> . I think that's something that maybe people, gen Z understands that and maybe generations before us don't so much always understand that. But like you can really love what you do and you should love what you do 'cause you're gonna be better at it.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. Okay, you stole mine a little bit, but my two would be, one is <laugh> is you can be a happy legal professional. There's a lot of cynicism. I think that naturally comes from the type A folks who get drawn to a profession, whether lawyers or legal professionals. And I think that it is a combination of the people you work with, your mentors, your practice group, the things that you're passionate about, when all of that drives that you can love your career. Sure, there'll be hard days. Things are complicated, helpful, it's complicated <laugh> , let's be honest, but it can be so rewarding. And if there's one thing that I love to share with early career professionals, especially younger folks who are just graduating or who might be in law school, is that, that you can be happy doing this kind of work. And I actually think a little bias , but I do think that health law can be a really good space for happy lawyers and legal professionals. So totally echo you, Mara. And then the second thing I would would say is just you belong in the room. Like don't doubt yourself. It touches on topics that kind of Mara touched on, Avery, touched on you belong in the room as much as other folks. So don't hesitate to volunteer for things that you see in the Volunteer Square account , square online for HLA or reaching out to practice groups and see if there's some something that they need. If you wanna get involved with the Early Career Professionals Council , even if it's not the ECPC council, as a member, we have publishing opportunities. If you're not familiar with the A HLA Connections magazine, we actually have an entire article area where we can spotlight your writing and work with you , um, to publish on topics that you're interested in. There's so many opportunities and I think sometimes folks can be scared that they don't have enough seniority or room to explore those interests. And I think that A HLA is such a great environment for folks to explore that and to , um, yeah, to just get a seat in the room. Um, y'all belong in here just as much as we do. So thank you guys so much for this conversation and for sharing your wisdom on being an early career professional, caring for our early career professionals and how folks can get involved. Um, I think that the hope is that this will be both a pitch for the ECPC, but also start some conversations within practice groups and other folks who might find , um, that they wanna support early career professionals, but don't know exactly how to best do that. Um, so if you guys have any questions or wanna reach out to us on the ECPC , please don't be strangers. Thanks so much for listening.
Speaker 2:Thank you for listening. If you enjoy this episode, be sure to subscribe to a HLA speaking of health law wherever you get your podcasts. To learn more about a HLA and the educational resources available to the health law community, visit American health law org .