AHLA's Speaking of Health Law
AHLA's Speaking of Health Law
How to “Survive and Thrive” in Health Law: Tips for Early Career Professionals
Alé Dalton, Partner, Bradley Arant Boult Cummings LLP, speaks with Ari Markenson, Partner, Venable LLP, about how early career professionals can use the complexities of the health care industry to their advantage. They discuss why the average health care lawyer is like a “Swiss Army Knife,” how to navigate the sea of acronyms that exist in the health care industry, what the heavily regulated nature of health care means for the practice of law, the value of attending AHLA’s Fundamentals of Health Law conference, and the importance of lifelong learning and establishing one’s professional brand. Ari is Editor-in-Chief of the brand-new title, AHLA’s Health Care Law and Policy Acronyms and Terms. From AHLA’s Early Career Professionals Council.
Watch the conversation here.
To learn more about AHLA and the educational resources available to the health law community, visit americanhealthlaw.org.
<silence>
Speaker 2:This episode of A HLA speaking of health law is brought to you by A HLA members and donors like you. For more information, visit american health law.org.
Speaker 3:Hey, everyone, welcome to speaking of Health Law ALA's podcast. We're so excited to have Ari Markson on the podcast today. He's a corporate and healthcare partner at Venable in their New York office, and he is on the board of a HLA. Ari is the editor in chief of ALA's Healthcare Law and Policy Acronyms and Terms, which was recently published by HLA. Uh, I would love for you to hear more about his story, so I'm gonna hand it over to Ari. Thank you for being here today,
Speaker 4:Allie . Thank you. Um, as you said, I'm, I'm a corporate healthcare partner here in , uh, Venable in our New York office. My day is spent essentially , uh, representing , um, healthcare investors, lenders and providers in all things sort of transactional and regulatory , um, and a long time member of A HLA. And we'll talk a bunch about my experience with HLA as we get, get through this podcast , um, and a current member of the board , uh, and also someone who's a , uh, been very involved in writing for HLA, and we'll talk a little bit about that as well. And , uh, very excited to be with you today.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much for having us. And I should say I'm Ally Dalton. I have the privilege of serving as the chair of the Early Career Professionals Council , and I'm also a partner at Bradley, practicing mostly in the healthcare mergers and acquisition space. Um, so Ari , for our first question, let's start with a level setting question. ALA's, mission is to deliver authoritative educational content and serve as a professional home for the folks who engage with healthcare law, whether it's lawyers or other health law professionals. Um, so why, why are you here today on the podcast?
Speaker 4:Um, good, good question, Allie . Uh, so I think actually, I think that there's, there's , uh, an interesting number of healthcare lawyers that, that have this kind of story and others that just don't have this story. Um, I know a healthcare lawyer who was part of HLA who , um, spent his first, you know, 10, 15 years of his life, like litigating in environmental lawsuits and some , uh, federal agency. And, and then tells you that he just sort of fell into being a healthcare lawyer after that. But , um, but I'm a little bit different, I think in some ways in that, in that I am the son of two physicians, one who also has a law degree. I grew up walking the halls <laugh> . Um, I grew up walking the halls of a major academic medical center in a world renowned orthopedic hospital. Um, without going into some gory details about the specific point in my life where I figured this out , um, I , uh, knew I was going to do something in healthcare , uh, and not , but just not as a clinician. And, and , um, and so unlike a lot of folks that, that get into law school and sort of figure out how they're gonna practice , um, I had a plan to practice law in healthcare when I went to law school. Um , that's incredible. <laugh> and, and even not, but not, not really knowing what it meant to be a healthcare lawyer. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . I just sort of said, I'm gonna take my law degree and do something in healthcare. Um, uh, and , um, pretty much as soon as I started my career, I found HLA and got pretty involved and, and , um, now almost 25 years of involvement in a HA , if not more for all I get . Yeah . I can't count. Well , um, it's given me a , a , a ton right? Expert knowledge in my field. Uh, the, and, and I think one of the most interesting things too is the ability to say, yes, I do know someone to a client who asks me Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> Things like, you know, how can I get help in Mississippi with this licensing issue I'm having? Or, you know, do you know anyone in Minnesota that can help me with a weird Medicaid question? Um, and those are sort of just two examples of the things that I, I talk to clients all the time and say, one of the things that I can bring to the table is not just what I can do for you, but it's who I know about the community of folks that can do things for you if you are in a regional or national kind of healthcare organization, right? You know , um, I , I've got friends, right? I've, I've, I've made these wonderful professional friends through a professional network , um, uh, that , uh, can really help you get to where you need to be. You know, if I'm, if I can't do it, I know who can do it. And, and I, and I've learned that through a HLA and, and that's not just obviously that network, but it's also educational . We'll talk a bunch about it in , in some of the, the things we're gonna talk about. But , um, you know, I I venture to say that 80% of the CLEI take on a yearly basis is from a LA . Um, and, and I, there's a , there's just an immense value to it , uh, and I've always seen that. Um, the other interesting thing I think worth saying, and I , and I had a funny experience about years, many years ago where when I first started in A HLA, we had listervs. And if you're as old as I am, you recall that there was email listservs that you could, you know, you , you , you shot out your email and it hit everybody on the listserv. And many people would respond saying, why are you spamming us all with this email? 'cause they were too old to understand how LISTSERV worked. Um, I understood at that time, even how it worked then. Uh, but what was amazing about the HLA community and, and still is today, by the way, is that as a young lawyer, I could say literally, you know, I'm a dummy and I don't understand this issue. Can somebody kind of point me in the right direction? And I get, not one, but multiple responses saying, look at this, or look at that, or go pull this out. Um, and, and it was just this incredible community of folks that were willing to be helpful. Um, we'll talk a little bit later, I think, just about kind of, you know, getting started. And I think that you'll find that as an organization , um, you're really gonna get turned away by anybody, right? And I found that to be , uh, just amazingly welcoming within the organization and one of the reasons why I'm here, right?
Speaker 3:So , yeah. Well, thank you so much for that, Ari , you are hired. Um, we're gonna take you on our easy PC tour of recruiting people to join A HLA. And it's really neat to see that, you know, we started with LISTSERV and how we have our communities that folks can join in on, but the ecosystem always stayed the same. And I would echo exactly what you said, though . I've not had the privilege of being through the A HLA as long as you have, but it certainly has been something that has added a lot to , um, my career and allowed me to meet folks like you who are significantly more experienced, who can have , you know, point me in the right direction. I also appreciate you saying that about , uh, being in a spot where you might not have known something. I think sometimes early career professionals feel like folks like you are just, you know, more born knowing healthcare law and all these acronyms and things that we're going to talk about in a little bit. So I appreciate you sharing that. And one of the things that you shared with me before is the thought of average healthcare lawyers being a Swiss Army knife. Can you share with our listeners a little bit about what you mean with that? Can you say that?
Speaker 4:Sure, sure. I , um, I teach a course on sort of healthcare lawyering skills , uh, in law school. And, and , um, one of the things that I sort of start out with students talking about is that in my mind, healthcare lawyers come in sort of three buckets, but the average bucket is that sort of Swiss Army knife bucket. I'll just quickly explain those three buckets, and then we'll talk about the Swiss Army knife. Um, so three buckets, Swiss army knife , uh, the, the sort of hyper specialist , the guy or gal who just knows everything there is to know about, you know, FQHCs, right? Family qualified health centers, right ? That that's their, their thing. Um, and then that third bucket is often someone who's a white collar litigator, for example, but about 50 to 60% of the clients that they represent on a daily basis are healthcare clients, right? And, and they, so they have a substantive specialty in the law. They're a li , you know, a white collar litigator or , um, you know, something else, and , and , and or employment and labor lawyer or something like that. But most of their clients are healthcare clients, right? Mm-Hmm , <affirmative> . Um, now let's get back to that Swiss army knife sort of average that I think of. And , and , and when I talk about that, I talk about somebody , um, who defines their practice, right? Defines what they're doing on a daily basis by sort of the type of clients that they have, not by necessarily the substantive law that they practice. And what I mean by that is, is that , um, somebody who can do a deal can, can , um, you know, write a request for an advisory opinion to the OIG. Um, and that might even litigate a Medicare reimbursement matter, right? And, and , um, granted, I tend to run away from anybody who puts litig on me <laugh> . But , um, I spend a lot of time transactional doing transactions , uh, helping clients with, with, you know , uh, uh, dealing with , um, thorny both regulatory diligence as well as normal everyday regulatory matters with regulatory agencies , um, asking the OIG for advisory opinions and all other kinds of things. And, and I, I tend to look at, at the, the folks that I represent as the , as healthcare clients, without putting a hat on and saying, well, I'm an m and a lawyer, or I'm a regulatory lawyer, or I'm a this kind of lawyer. Um, because as I said, I sort of , I , I look at myself as that Swiss army knife of, I've got a lot of substantive skills in the law, but it's what I know about the industry and what I know about my clients that what is , what I define myself by. Um, and often that Swiss army of healthcare lawyer is somebody who can say to a client who comes to them and says, you know, I've got this clinical lab regulatory issue. And they can say, look, I'm, you know, I'm not that clinical laboratory expert, right? Mm-Hmm , <affirmative> . But I know where to find the answer. I know who to call. I understand the issue, right? And it's because of my understanding of the healthcare industry, right? And the provider side of the industry particularly, and maybe even some of the f rules and , and clear rules related to labs, right? That, that I can help you. Um, and, and on average , uh, I think that certainly a lot of the members of A HLA , um, as well as healthcare lawyers in general kind of fit that Swiss Army knife thing. Um, uh, they're not necessarily , um, uh, um, you know, they're not necessarily defined by , uh, the fact that they can litigate, right?
Speaker 3:Right. Yeah. No, that's really helpful, and I appreciate you sharing that, because I think that's one of the questions we get a lot with our early career professionals or folks who are still in law school, is what's a typical day like look like for you? <laugh>? I always like to laugh at that because there's really no typical day <laugh> other than a healthcare client calling with some , um, incredibly interesting issue that's ongoing at their facility or across their facilities. Um, so we , um, one of the things that folks , uh, who are new to the industry encounter is this soup of acronyms. You have C-M-S-D-H-H-S, hipaa, lea , a, CA , there are so many different acronyms and pronunciations of the acronyms, <laugh> . And having an understanding of that , um, can really set you up well, especially when you're early on in your career, but also as you encounter new issues like you were sharing. Um, any thoughts on the acronym soup and how we can help folks navigate it?
Speaker 4:Sure. Um, so it would be really easy and, and really , um, sort of , uh, um, uh, I'm missing the word that I was gonna say, but we don't almost seem like a , uh, you know, we were on , um, HGTV or something trying to sell something. If we were to just say, well, we just brought this book that's all about acronyms and , and terms and in , uh, healthcare policy and the law, and , and well , we did , um, yeah , <laugh> , and it was a lot of fun. It was a lot of fun doing, and if you haven't gotten your hands on it, it's very affordable and it is a great , um, a great resource. But I'd like to get deeper into sort of, you know, why , why are these acronyms in terms so important to being a healthcare worker ? Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> , right ? And , and , um, and I, I, I've, it's , this is a funny way to go about this, but I've, I've talked a lot of young law students out of ever getting a master of public health or an MHA or anything like that after law school. 'cause I've wanted to make it quite clear that you don't necessarily need those things to be a healthcare order, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> , um, it's a path I followed , but it's not a po a path that I think anybody has to follow, right? Um, but I followed , uh, that path. I got myself a master's of public health after law school, and I did it because despite what I knew about healthcare from things like listening to, you know, mom, you know, my on-call mom talked to my dad about her patients from the back of the station wagon <laugh> . Um, I wanted to spend , uh, more time sort of academically immersed in healthcare. And, and I , um, and I did that through, through getting my master's right after law school. But as I said, I don't think you and I, and I feel very strongly about the fact that you don't need to do that to be a healthcare lawyer. Um, with that said, and this is sort of a , I think in the , um, uh, uh, uh, I even put it in the editor's note, I think in the, in the HLA book we put together. Um, and , uh, by the way, Allie , let's really do a shameless plug, right?
Speaker 3:Yes. No, I was gonna say, here is the book, it's real. Um , it is beautiful. It is also very compact as well. So it is like a pocket guide of sorts, but truly it is the definitive dictionary <laugh> on all things , um, healthcare law policy , um, healthcare law, and policy acronyms and terms. Um, so it's not just what it stands for, but there's also a little bit of a blurb on what it is. And it's incredible. It's already been , um, taken from my office a couple of times since it arrived, and it hasn't been here for very long. So ,
Speaker 4:Um, and so the , the , when I, there's something, I wrote a note about this in the, in the editor's note in that when I started my master's program, I was sort of handed this Xerox copy, you know, a bunch of sheets with all these terms and acronyms and, and the, the, and , uh, I couldn't remember exactly what , you know, the exact words that were used, but we were essentially told on that that first day of orientation, that if we finished our master's program and really didn't have a good feeling for what was in this packet, like the school had done something wrong, right? <laugh>, like, like this was sort of the like, you know, they really, you really needed to understand the terminology, the, the, the, the, just the regulatory framework and, and all those things sort of sat in those acronyms and terms, right ? Um, look, this is a really specialized field. Healthcare is a very specialized field. It's got its own jargon, right? And to succeed, you have to spend the time and effort understanding that legal and regulatory framework and those specialized terms and acronyms that are so constant, right? They come up all the time. Um, I'm gonna like cringe saying this, but I'm gonna say it anyway. Like, Google is your friend, right? In the sense that when someone throws out a term or an acronym that you've never heard of , um, I, look, I always write it down, look it up, right? I , I, I, I know that that's just something I don't know about something that's affecting my clients in some way or not. Whether it's an agency I never heard of, or a new law I never heard of , um, you know, or, or some type of even medical procedure that while I don't necessarily, you know, think that I have to understand the names of procedures, but the client's asking me, you know, a question about whether they can or can't get paid for that procedure in an inpatient or an outpatient setting, right? And if I don't understand what the hell they they're talking about in terms of what that procedure is, yeah , well, I , it's hard to help, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . Um, and so I always put those things down. Now, now also I'll tell you that like, look, I didn't learn that because I had, in fact, my wife and others people I know had this, you know, but , but I didn't have a parent who like put the big Oxford English dictionary on a stand in their living room and told their kids, like, you know, when their kid asked , what does that word mean? They said, go look it up. You know, <laugh> , I , I didn't have that, but I certainly learned to do that, particularly in our corner of the world in healthcare law. There's just, there's just so much specialized things going on , um, terms, acronyms, those kinds of things that I learned to really make sure that I understood what somebody was throwing at me. Um, and I think it's really, really important that it to succeed in this field, that you, you have that, and, and I don't, and I'll take away from what we were just talking about in terms of being that Swiss Army knife where, you know, even if you're that employment lawyer, right? Like, I mean, I'm sure that pretty much every employment lawyer knows what OSHA is, right? But, but the fact is that you don't, something's wrong, right? Right. If you, if you don't understand as an employment lawyer in healthcare that there are additional healthcare regulatory requirements for reporting potential events that happen with employees in healthcare settings, right? Well, something's wrong. Like you need to understand that extra specialized knowledge. Um, and sometimes there's, you know, particular acronyms that go with it, like your state's reporting law may be called the a BC law, right? And, and, and , um, uh, and you should know that, right? So,
Speaker 3:So this is related , you know, you shared about how specialized the field is, and this is part of what birth is . You feel super helpful book , um, depending on what measure you use, the healthcare industry is the second most regulated, second only to nuclear power, or at least in the top 10. And it ranks consistently as most regulated, one of the most regulated industries. Um, what does that mean to someone wanting to be a healthcare lawyer, but also tying it into kind of what you've shared thus far? Um, it can feel probably overwhelming if I'm putting my shoes, you know, am I putting myself in someone's shoes who just graduated or is interested in the field? Um, what does it mean to be in such a regulated industry and how can you make it , um, less scary or less intimidating? And you have a lot of experience with the law students , so I feel like you're just so well equipped to answer this question.
Speaker 4:Well , um, tying in Jake , I'll say, well, what does it mean? Well, it means full employment for healthcare lawyers, right? In the sense that if you , if you , if you, if you get the opportunity, there's so much there to work on that , you know, you should always have work, right? Um, no , but seriously , um, it also means that it's not a practice area that you can succeed in halfway, right? Um, and I think that's important , um, in the sense that, like I was saying before, if you find an employment and labor lawyer who doesn't understand what OSHA is or doesn't understand that they're representing healthcare clients, and there may be other sort of regulatory issues involved and what some employee did or didn't do, right? Um, you're not serving your client well. Uh , um, and, and I think though, if you're really , uh, interested and engaged in the area , um, it's pretty easy to blaze a trail for yourself as a specialized expert , um, in sort of this, you know, constant right and growing healthcare field , right ? You know, look, healthcare spending in, oh , in 22, which is I think the most recent numbers, we have 17.3% of GDP mm-Hmm , <affirmative> , um, and massive portion of our economy in the United States, the likelihood that that's going to dramatically, dramatically reduce like zero, right? Yeah . Just going to continue on a, on an upward trend trajectory. I mean, we may in fact, and hopefully we will slow it , um, but it's not going to stop. Uh , um, and it's such a large portion of the economy , um, and , and something that literally affects life and limb, right? Uh, the regulation of the healthcare industry isn't going away. Uh, and you know, you, you, you know , someone who wants to be a healthcare lawyer, you have the opportunity to really become an expert , um, for your clients. You know, obviously if you're willing to put in that effort and, and really get a feel for the industry and be an industry expert.
Speaker 3:Yeah. No , I think that's really helpful. Um , and I think going back to what you originally said, the pitch for A HLA is that if you don't know anything, you can come join us and we can help teach you lots of things , um, including with your book <laugh> . Um, so this last question for you as we wrap up. For folks who are listening to us or watching today that have interest in health law as a career or who are on the early side of their career, do you have any advice to someone who has been both involved in HLA and has had a really incredible career and gets to do really cool things for his clients? Um, do you have any advice for us on how to survive and thrive as early career professionals?
Speaker 4:So this is going to sound like cliche. Sure . We've we've heard it again and again , um, but no matter what, it rains true, right? Know your client and know the industry . Um, it , it , it's, you know, anyone in legal BD will tell you that, right? <laugh> , like , like , you know , gotta know your client, gotta know the industry. But the fact is, is that it's true, and it's really true in healthcare because of the nature of the industry and the nature of regulatory environment, right? I mean, you, you, as I said before, it's so you can't do it halfway , right? It's not something to dabble in. Um, and, you know, you gotta spend the extra time learning about new developments. Look up those acronyms in terms you've never heard of. Um, by the way, go to HLAs fundamentals. Uh, um, yes . The , the , um, uh, uh, and I'll say some other things before, but before I get off fundamentals, I wanna say something about fundamentals. Fundamentals has got this really great group of experienced A HLA members speaking on the basics of health law, right? And one of the things that's very interesting, I think about fundamentals is first of all, the commitment of the folks that are speaking there, right? Second of all, I think you'll find that, you know, anyone who's chosen to speak there , uh, and talk about their experience and talk about their knowledge with respect to the fundamentals of health law , um, is, is not going to turn you away when you wanna talk to them about understanding an issue, right? Uh , just the , it's the really the culture of HLA , right? That , and I think that that's important to, to recognize this , not just plugging the program as much as saying that, like, it's really a wonderful place to go learn something about how to start out doing what you're doing and how to get a, a , a , a really well-rounded understanding of health law. Um, then you're also talking to practitioners where, you know, it's really, really exciting. At least I thought it was exciting to take health law and law school, right ? And, and, but it was like any law school classes taught very theoretical, lots of case reading and writing briefs about cases and, and looking at issues. Whereas , um, at fundamentals, you're hearing from practitioners about how you practice health law . Yeah . Um , and it's a very different thing. And now the other thing that I think is really worthwhile , um, and I think that a lot of young lawyers don't take advantage of , um, I took taken advantage of this a ton in my career, which is if I had something that I thought was interesting to me, or even a question a client asked that I'd already done some work on, or whatever it might be, I learned very early on in my career, and I did a ton of this early on, and I still do to some extent, although I've slowed down a little bit , um, is to force myself to identify something I either knew a little bit about or wanna understand something about, research a little bit more about it, and then wrote about it, wrote about it for some, you know, business development purpose or some marketing purpose, not just necessarily mean for a client or for the firm that you're at, or, but really getting it into an HLA publication or, or industry publication or something else. Um, and using the process of writing, using the process of figuring something out, learning, researching it, and writing to become more of an expert on that issue, right? To, to understand it better. Um, one of , and the reason why earlier I said that, I think there's so many young lawyers that just don't think that, that , you know, they don't, don't take advantage of that. It's for two reasons, at least two reasons that I've seen. One is for whatever reason, young lawyers don't think that whatever they want to write about, you know, that, that they'll have a chance of getting to do that, right? That , that like, that , like, they'll be turned away <laugh> , right? <laugh> . Um , and, and the other thing is I think a lot of young lawyers , um, just don't understand the value of taking the time to do it. Right? Um, now against that, I will tell you, and you'll learn this in your career no matter what, right? That, that the best way to get a client in your door is not necessarily to write an article on something, right? But if your clients , uh, see that you're writing and see that you under know what you're talking about by virtue of writing, it's a big part of, of having your clients understand who you are and what you know. Uh, and so particularly early on in your career where you're establishing, I can't believe I'm about to say this, a brand, right? Or, or just trying to establish your bonafides that you , that you know , you a he , um, having written those things , uh, is, is definitely a way to , to do that . I today never write anything without asking the person who I'm gonna send the article to first about the idea I have and whether they think they'd wanna see it. Um, and I think that , uh, lots of young lawyers don't realize that they could even do that, right? That, that , um, you know, sometimes, particularly in hla , a lot of the practice groups, for example, will send out , uh, um, uh, solicitations for somebody to write out something specific, and that's great. You know exactly what they want you to write about, pick it up and do it , right? Other times they won't, but maybe you think there's something you want write about. So email the head of the practice group or whoever's handing their, their newsletter or, or email some of the publications folks at HLA or otherwise saying, I'd like to write about X. What do you think about that? Do you , would you like to see that? Um, and at least that way you've got a sense of somebody saying, yeah, that's a topic we'd be interested in, right? Um, but again, like to, to think that like you wouldn't have the opportunity to do that. You're totally mistaken. <laugh> , there's <laugh> , you went to law school, by the way, just as a reminder, you actually have a doctoral degree right now, right? And , and you're pretty smart. You've written a lot so far. Um, and folks recognize that, right? And so , um, so take advantage of that. Uh , the other thing that I would say, and this is sounds again, totally bizarre. Um, but, so I need 48 CLE credits in New York every two years. Okay ? Okay. I end up with 90 to as much as 120 in that cycle for lots of different reasons, right? Yeah. Um, one of those reasons is that I, I I go to a bunch of , uh, um, HA programs a year and you get a lot of CLE going to HLA programs. Mm-hmm , right? Um, but another is, I spend a ton of time sitting at my desk eating my lunch and listening to, or watching , uh, even an hour long CLE and oftentimes when r HLA stuff, but not necessarily always. Um, and , um, it's just an interest of learning something specific, something new or, or catching up on something that I haven't thought about in a while , uh, whatever. And, and, and I know that there's also a lot of young learners that are, you know, I've gotta make hours I've gotta do , so I gotta do that. Well, you gotta figure out a way to put some extra time in because if you can put that extra time in to be smart and not just technical, right? Um, it is very easy to have partner you work with come in and say, I need you to research X, write me a memo and get back to me in a week. That's technical, right? Um, you gotta do more than that and you gotta figure out how to do more than that. Um, because I think that's, that, that's what's going to make you really good at what you do. So
Speaker 3:Thank, thank you. Those are really great encouragement. And I would echo everything you said about fundamentals. I think for a lot of our early career professionals, that's where a lot of us got our start with A HLA . We didn't join before when we were in law school. Um, so I'll echo that pitch. We also usually have a dinner of early career professionals at A HLA . So we would love to meet folks. Um, is also not just a great place to learn and to meet folks who are practitioners who can teach you so many things about the work that they do, but also to start growing your network. I'm a first generation professional. I didn't know any lawyers, certainly didn't have lawyers in my family, and certainly did not know any healthcare lawyers other than the ones I met when I was a summer associate at my firm. And I feel like my network was just absolutely, it exploded after <laugh> , um, coming back from fundamentals and we stayed in touch. And now a lot of us serve on the early Career Professionals council . So , um, we also have opportunities for publishing if you are interested. So please reach out to the early career team. Um, we are happy to entertain any of all ideas as Ari encouraged folks. Um, but also really appreciate you flagging this lifelong learning concept that I think sometimes we forget as lawyers, especially young lawyers who are worried, like you said about ours and other things , um, that are important, but might not be , um, you know, the , the most important when it comes to building that knowledge and that background. So Ari , thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and your time with us, your incredible book <laugh> . Um , we're , we encourage everyone to go out and check it out. Um, and where can folks find you? Are you on LinkedIn active, or I I guess next ? hla
Speaker 4:I'm it definitely on , uh, LinkedIn. Um, you can certainly, my contact information's on our firm website. Um, I am , uh, uh, almost religiously at at least our annual meeting in HLA and, and the transactions conference in Nashville. Um, and , uh, and just in , involved in a lot of the , um, uh, uh, communities as well , um, in HLA , uh, online. And, and folks can easily reach out to me if they've got questions or, or if I can be helpful in , uh, some way.
Speaker 3:Thanks so much, Ari . We appreciate you. Thanks for listening,
Speaker 4:Allie . Thank you. This was great. Appreciate it.
Speaker 2:Thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to a HLA speaking of health law wherever you get your podcasts. To learn more about a HLA and the educational resources available to the health law community, visit American health law.org.