AHLA's Speaking of Health Law
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AHLA's Speaking of Health Law
Mental Health and Wellness: A Legal Check-In
Michelle Johnson Tidjani, CommonSpirit Health, and Florence L. Di Benedetto, Di Benedetto Solutions, Inc., discuss the mental health challenges that health lawyers face and how to tackle the stigma that the legal profession attaches to mental health. They share their personal experiences with mental health and strategies to build resilience and cope with difficult and stressful situations. Michelle and Florence spoke about this topic at AHLA’s 2024 In-House Counsel Program in Washington, DC.
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Speaker 2:This episode of A HLA speaking of health law is brought to you by a HLA members and donors like you. For more information, visit american health law.org.
Speaker 3:So, I am so excited to be here with my dear friend Flo , uh, Dito to talk about a topic that is of critical importance to professionals generally. Um , but this audience is primarily lawyers and compliance professionals in the healthcare space. Um, so I'm delighted , uh, both for the opportunity , uh, to talk about that this topic, and for the partnership that I have with my dear friend , uh, Flo in this conversation. I'm Michelle Johnson to Johnny . I serve as Chief Administrative Officer at Common Spirit Health. Uh, common Spirit Health is a mission driven organization , um, of about , um, 150 or so hospitals across 24 states. Um, we are committed to serving the entirety of the population, including in areas of behavioral health. And so both perf personally and professionally, this topic , uh, resonates , uh, for me and so delighted to be able to engage. Flo , I'm gonna turn it to you , uh, to give you an opportunity to introduce yourself, and then maybe we'll kick off , uh, our discussion for , uh, today.
Speaker 4:Great. Good morning, Michelle. Always, always, always a pleasure to be with you in any venue where we can be together, especially to talk about this topic. As you mentioned at the outset, it's important for the industry, it's important for our colleagues in A HLA. And as you know, it's, it's personal to me , uh, because of my experiences, and I know it's personal to you as well. I'm Flo De Benedetto . I am currently the president and CEO of De Benedetto Solutions Inc. Which is a consulting firm. We do a variety of things. We do leadership development, executive coaching. We work with governing boards. We do arbitration and mediation work, and we do interim and fractional general counsel services. Prior to forming this company, I served for over 14 years as the Senior Vice President and General Counsel of Sutter Health, which is a $20 billion integrated delivery system in Northern California with a variety of hospitals, health systems, and everything else that you would expect from an integrated delivery system. And prior to that, spent 28 years in private practice as a healthcare attorney in Northern California.
Speaker 3:So it's, it's fantastic to hear that introduction. Every time I hear you , uh, do that introduction flow , I'm reminded of how we met. And so for those of you who don't have a sense of this, you know, Flo and I met , um, both as general counsels at a conference talking about general counsel things. And so prior to joining Common Spirit Health, I served as Chief Legal Officer for Henry Ford Health. And, and we were a part of a conversation really, about the future of healthcare in lots of different , uh, ways. But at some point in that conversation, we drifted from the formalities of the conference to a hallway conversation , uh, connecting with each other on a much more personal level. Um, and somehow we moved into , um, you know, behavioral health as a topic. And in fact, well , you sent to me a newsletter. This is, this is , um, actually, as I think about this, how we came to this, you, we were in a conversation after that big conference. We'd exchanged information, and you sent me a letter that you sent to your team. And before we get into the particulars of that, we talk to me, talk to us about why you think , um, this topic is so important , uh, for professionals. You know, I have a perspective on that as , as well too. But what , why don't you just kick us off with why is this this topic of behavioral health, particularly for those in the legal profession, one that we, we, we have to be talking about right now?
Speaker 4:I could probably spend the next 45 minutes just answering that question. Michelle, let me , uh, let me give you the flyover highlights. I think this is a crucial conversation to have with our colleagues at A HLA for, for several reasons. Um, and I'm gonna start at the end and then backfill. And the end is, for me, and you might remember this, when we were in Washington, the technical title of the pro of the panel that we presented was , um, mental health and a le uh , legal check-in or something of that nature. But the personal topic that I, or the personal heading that I had put on the, on the PowerPoint deck was, this is me and I'm not okay. And for me, this topic became so personal and so important because in my career, which spans now over four decades, and a career that I think most people would look at and think that it was highly successful. And I'm very, very grateful for that. But the
Speaker 3:Reality, including me, I, I, I am of those most people. Just so we're clear. Go ahead. Well,
Speaker 4:Thank you. But , uh, I appreciate that I, I personally, as you know, hit the wall big time twice because of my inability to meaningfully maturely and productively deal with the stress that I experienced in my private practice setting, as well as the stress that I experienced in the , in serving as the senior vice president general counsel of a large , uh, integrated delivery system. And, and that is a story that I, I welcome the opportunity to share with people, because I think most people would look at me and think, oh, she has it all together. She's never had a problem with stress or, or depression or anxiety. And, and quite honestly, the opposite is true. And yeah , I think it's, it's particularly , uh, important for members of our organization, lawyers, compliance officials, because look, our role is to solve people's problems. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> , our role is to serve as fiduciaries to our organization , organizations, to our, to our boards. Um , we are also in roles that are not always particularly embraced and valued, right? Because we're often perceived as the department of no. And, and that adds an , an additional element of stress and , um, anxiety to what we do as lawyers. And so I just think there's unique stressors that we as lawyers Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> experience. Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 3:<affirmative> .
Speaker 4:And also, as we found out the first time we talked about this at , at ero, there is a market reluctance of lawyers to talk about this because yeah , I can remember some of the quotes that we got from the ERO chat when we first did this, which was a virtual session for them. But comments like, emotions and vulnerability are not embraced and allowed in my organization. I would be perceived as being professionally ineffective. I'm supposed to solve other people's problems. People are gonna think I'm weak. There's a stigma. And that really resonated with me, and I know it did with you. And it it caused both of us, I think, to find opportunities where we could talk openly about this.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And you know, the other thing , um, Flo that we oftentimes don't mention, particularly as senior most lawyers in an organization, is that it gets a little bit lonely. And so what I mean by that is this idea that, you know, as a general counselor , for some people in these chief compliance officer roles and all of the chief spaces , um, and even just senior roles and organizations, you know, you have sort of a limited audience of folks that you can talk with . And so when you begin to have, you know , conversations, you know, we do these engagement surveys about your best friend at work, well , oftentimes, you know, issues of privilege and confidentiality limit your ability to decompress around the work stress things. Right? And so we take some of those things with us , um, to our lives outside of work . You , when you internalize 'em there, you take some of those things with you as you go outside , uh, for a whole host of reasons, right? Some of them are the very practical pieces that I talked about. But also, to your point, this element of, you know, being perceived as folks who, who have it all together. So as we think about, as we think about sort of why , um, this topic matters , um, it matters because we just don't spend enough time talking about it. And, and it is a very real issue that so many , uh, in our , uh, profession are navigating sort of silently. Um , and I say silently because it isn't the case that we have prioritized, even in healthcare flow, the importance of mental health in the way that we prioritize physical health. It's clear to everybody. You've gotta have a physical every year. In fact, so many of our benefit programs sort of rely on that. You gotta have your annual physical. But what about the notion that there is an equally important, if not in some instances, more important? 'cause so much of our mental health impacts our physical health, where we need to have that sort of annual, or for some people quarterly or for some people monthly, you know , or weekly, whatever, check in , uh, as well. And so, I mean, that's why we're here , um, talking about this, and this is why , um, this conversation is so critically important. And I would just say now more than ever, as our, as our industry continues to navigate, lots of change. So I wanna go back to that letter that you sent, that email on that deck . I can almost remember sitting in my office and receiving that note and the conversation that ensued between you and I after. Why don't you tell us about that letter? And I'm gonna, I wanna talk a little bit about why that resonated for me , but go ahead. Why don't you tell us about that?
Speaker 4:Okay. I'm happy to do that. Before I do that though, I wanna come back to something that you just said about loneliness. Yep . And about , uh, how we as lawyers tend to manage our stress silently. And I'm gonna offer something here. I don't think we manage it at all. Uh, most of us don't manage it at all, because I think we naturally resist it, because I think we think that this is all normal. The stresses that we feel in our jobs, and by the way, we, as you know, we all have stress in our personal lives, right? And that stress accumulates, it accumulates over periods of months and years. For me, it accumulated over years that led up to my first physical breakdown. But as lawyers, we think, oh, well, this just comes with the territory. I mean, I'm , I'm supposed I'm supposed to feel like this. Yeah .
Speaker 3:And ,
Speaker 4:You know, on the loneliness thing, I would say also that social isolation is also a, a signal. It should have been a signal to me when I began to socially isolate and withdraw and, and do some other things to try and relieve how I was feeling inside. None of them productive, by the way. Um, social iol isolation is a , is really a symptom of what's going on inside. But , Hmm . Lemme tell you about the , uh, article that I wrote. Uh, it was an article that was published in our mental health newsletter at Sutter Health. We, of course, have a, Sutter has a mental health division. And the CEO of that organization knew that I had experienced a suicide of someone in my family, very close to me, and also knew, because I had had an opportunity to speak about this. After my second breakdown at Sutter, I addressed , uh, our management symposium, which was 4,000 people, manager and above, to talk about my experience. And he asked me if I would write an article for this, for this newsletter that did go out to 55,000 employees, 12,000 affiliated physicians, and all of our boards. So here I am , uh, basically bearing my soul and my vulnerability and my weaknesses to everyone in the organization. A slightly scary thing to do when you're in the c-suite of an organization, and people expect you to be perfect and strong and never have these kinds of problems. That's fair . When I told the story of the suicide of my sister, wait,
Speaker 3:Let me , let me just ask you, but before you decided to, I mean, was there any sort of reservation? I mean, did you have to, when someone asked you to tell that particular, did you pause for a minute and think, should I, could I, were you thinking through or maybe even obsessing, overthinking about the implications? Or did you just say, you know what, great question. I'm happy to do it. What, what, I mean, what was your Oh , no . Immediate reaction.
Speaker 4:Okay . My immediate reaction was, no, I'm not, I'm not going to do this. I didn't wanna speak publicly about it, and I certainly didn't wanna write an article that would go out to even more people than the 4,000 in the management symposium. So my first answer was no. Um, and it was a reaction. Mm-Hmm . It was a reaction coming from self-protection. Yeah. And honestly, Michelle from ego and thought Yeah . And not wanting to be perceived as anything other than a rock solid pc .
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah. I get that. I get that.
Speaker 4:I did, I did think about it. Um, I actually prayed about it, which as you know, my faith is important to me, and it's a , it's a big part of how I've learned to truly and constructively manage my stress. But the, the thing that got it over the goal line for me was the, the , the suicide of my sister-in-law, Nancy, who was a, not just my relative by marriage, but a very, very dear friend of mine. It popped into my head one day, about a week after I initially said, no, I don't wanna do that. That if Nancy had survived her fairly short period of depression and anxiety, about a 10 month period, and at the end of which she took her own life, if she were here today, she would tell her story. Hmm . And so I ultimately decided to do it, to honor her. And also because after thinking about it, I , and I think this is incumbent on leaders everywhere, no matter what the topic is. If we can help even one person avoid some of the things that I've experienced that you've experienced, then I think it's not only worth it as a person, I think it's part of our responsibility as leaders.
Speaker 3:Yeah. You know, it's this , there's this element of creating human connection with people, and it comes in lots of different ways, right? So, oftentimes it is the case that in telling your story, there's something about that story that resonates with others. Right? There is the , the fact that, oh, I'm not alone. Wait, what? You, you experienced X, Y, or Z, and I've experienced X, Y, and Z. And so now we have this sort of shared narrative, and really an opportunity potentially to grow , um, as a result of, of whatever that experience was good or , or bad, or sad or happy, whatever it was. Um, there is this sort of shared opportunity, if you will, to, to sort of grow from that. And I think it kind of gets you to that, that point of, you know, vulnerability, which has been a topic of late for so many in so many different spaces and places. But I never, ever thought , um, professionally that, oh, that's a thing , um, for me, or a thing that needs to be a part of what I do, or how I , um, show up , uh, with others. But, but what I have found , um, what I have found is that it sometimes creates , um, in my experience, some of the best connections when talking about both successes, but maybe even more profoundly , um, areas of opportunity or challenges or experiences that I've had that were not so positive. And so it's interesting, as you think about , um, as I think about that day and you sending that letter and talking about your sister-in-Law, we began a conversation about , um, my brother who , um, you know , we talked about, I , I, I , I lost my brother to , uh, suicide. But more important than how we lost him is how he lived. And I think one of the things that , um, that comes for me in having conversations about him was this idea that, you know, people are so profoundly incredible and have the opportunity to have so many, you know, know positive , um, impacts on our lives. And I would say to you and to those in our audience, my brother was probably one of the most powerful influences and inspirations and sources of encouragement and support , uh, for me, particularly as a young adult, and as I entered and navigated so much of my early career. And it was because some of the lived experiences I was able to observe with him. And so I'm at a place now where I have that recollection. But the other thing that I , um, so profoundly , uh, recall is, and , and, and now know, is what people , um, experience when they're navigating depression and when they're navigating other mental health challenges that we have to deal with sort of silently. And so, Flo , I'd ask you, as you, as you think about, you sort of touched upon, you know, some of the, the, the challenges and , and sort of how they played out for you , uh, personally. Um, and then you talked a bit about , um, your sister-in-Law. She just, let's, let's, let's, let's go there a little bit more around, you know, what that looks like and what was the step toward, I'm , I'm gonna do something different , uh, in my life, right? So something's going on either personally, professionally, or I've lost someone in my life, and so I need to do something different. What , what was the sort of point at which you recognize there was something that occurred, and maybe I need to do something differently in my own life?
Speaker 4:Well, as you know, Michelle, I am a slow learner in all respects. Mm-Hmm .
Speaker 3:<affirmative> . And so I wouldn't say that's true. I would not say that's true. Go ahead.
Speaker 4:Well , I think the audience will say that's true when they hear how long it took me to actually recognize what was going on with me. But my, I lost my sister-in-law in 2003, and it was a shock to all of us. And, and we'll just leave it there, because again, I could talk about her and how unexpected this was. But prior to that time, I , uh, in the five years prior to that, I lost my mom, my dad, five of my very beloved dogs. And you know how important the animals are to me. My sister-in-Law, at that time, I was running my own law firm. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . And our senior partners had left and took about $2 million of business with him, which for a small firm is a significant chunk. And so it fell on me and a couple of other partners to go out and then find the work to replace that. And there were a variety of other things going on in my life. And frankly, in my personal life, I was struggling with my long-term relationship , um, trying to figure out what to do there. So it felt, Michelle, like everything in my life was, was going in the wrong direction. And I was out running on a street in Delaware visiting a friend. I tripped and fell, and I cut my hand. No big deal. Right? Well, long story short, because my immune system, which I did not realize at the time, was so bottomed out as a result of this stress and an infection developed, and I had to be hospitalized, and I was septic. So you would think that that might have caused me to realize, or begin to discern that maybe something was going on that I wasn't managing properly, but Oh, no, I can ,
Speaker 3:No, no, no. We would think of it. No, no flow because you're strong and we're resilient. And so we , that , that couldn't , this is just a little bit of a setback. And , and we'll go to the hospital where we know we can get great care, and then we'll be done back to it, and we'll
Speaker 4:Be done . Yeah . Right. We'll be done. And
Speaker 3:Yeah . That , that didn't happen. Say more. Yeah.
Speaker 4:And let me tell you what, what did happen instead of the self-reflection, that it took me another double digit number of years to, to actually engage in, I made the decision that, oh, this wasn't about me. This was about everybody else in my life. They needed to change. Yeah .
Speaker 3:They could just get it together, <laugh> . They could just get it together. Flo <laugh> . Yeah . Go
Speaker 4:Ahead . It's not me. I don't need to change. All these other people need to change. And actually, Michelle, I left my job now that wasn't planned necessarily. The opportunity to serve at Sutter came up, and I wasn't expecting that either. Wasn't looking for it, but I decided to change my job. I left my long-term relationship. I left my home. Let's just change everything in our lives because it's all these other things that are not working. Right. Yeah . I'm fine. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . And that , I , I went then from 2007, which was the date of my first physical breakdown, all the way to 2013, when I had an even more acute and of longer duration physical breakdown , um, as a result of honestly not being able to manage the, the stress of the role that I was in at Sutter Health, which is , you know, is, is, is enormously stressful for all of us. Whether you're in a private practice or in-house, or whatever the setting is. The nature of our jobs is stressful. And then you add on all the personal stress and some of the personal stress , of course, is good with kids and all, but stress is stress. And as I said earlier, it accumulates, and it took me down a second time. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . And it was that second time. And having been, I was down for about three months. Fortunately, I could work from home. And I had a wonderful, wonderful CEO who was 100% supportive of me and my recovery. Um , but it took until the end of that three month period for me to finally begin to discern that maybe the change needed to start with me.
Speaker 3:Mm . You know, I wonder Yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 4:Go ahead . I just wanna say one other thing about that, and then , 'cause I don't wanna forget to come back to something you said, and then we can dive into it later if you want to. But you had mentioned earlier on that the , that this is so important for us today because the future of healthcare and the pace of change, I'll tell you what, one of my major concerns is about the healthcare industry and how we will be able to respond to the never ending change and the relentless pace of it. Yeah . The thing that I think creates a huge , uh, I don't know if I would call it a barrier, but what causes me to lose sleep at night is I don't think many of our leaders in healthcare at the highest levels have really developed the resiliency skills that they should develop to be able to navigate the change in the industry, resilience
Speaker 3:Or
Speaker 4:Deal with strain, deal with change much better. Because part of being resilient, truly resilient, not just the, I'm tough and I can gut this out, but how to really be resilient really enhances our ability to manage change and change, I think is one of our biggest challenges in healthcare.
Speaker 3:Yeah. You know, it's funny, I think about , um, a quote when you mentioned , um, resilience. And that is that so much of resilience is rooted in hope and the belief that we can shape our future, even if the journey is hard. Right? So it is not the throw up your hands and quit, but it's also not the buckle down . I got it. It is this idea that there is this hopefulness, but also there is this need to, to do the work. And so, as I think broadly about that, as I think about resilience, particularly as it applies to individuals navigating change, whatever it is from an industry perspective, from a personal perspective, there is this need to do the work, if you will. Right. Because you don't just hope doesn't just get you there on its own, right? I mean, we, we, we know that hope and isolation is not quite enough. It's, it's hope and and work , uh, that we have to do. And so part of that is , um, acknowledging the thing, right? Even if we don't know how to put language to the thing that is the source of stress, to the thing that is causing our frustration to the thing that is causing, you know, chaos in our res , you know, in our lives at a particular point in time, there is this moment where we have to be able to sort of step back and begin to think through whatever it is so that we can move on. I , you know, and for me, I , you know, it's, it's interesting because I, you know , I obviously , um, in healthcare, we know that we have behavioral health professionals, and they do very important work. But the notion that I might need any support to work through something, I mean, isn't there a book, a tool, a meditation that will be enough? And sometimes, sometimes it isn't. And sometimes as we think about what it means to be resilient, some people, Flo , and I know you've seen this before, some people thinking that gutting it out and just getting through it is resilient. And, and the reality is, all too often we spend too much of our time and our energy and our career thinking that we can just gut it out and we'll get through it until we hit the wall. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> . And you realize , um, you, you, you need to pause and reflect and potentially get some, get some help , um, to, to navigate through this. And so, as I, as I think about that, and I, as I think a little bit about , um, you know, my own need for that support and time in , in , in a time of crisis , uh, for me and the loss of someone who was so, so, so, so important , uh, and , and completely unexpected , um, the ability to reach out , um, to my colleagues and my friends and my coworkers , and be supported in a way that matters , um, I think is, is everything. Um, it really is everything. What do you think , um, Flo as you, as you think about that, what do you think some of the sort of key steps, you know, when we did our , um, discussion for A-H-L-A-A few months ago , um, you had some really, really thoughtful slides around sort of navigating through resilience, navigating through change, particularly as leaders. And I, I , I really want to be sure that this audience has the benefit of hearing some of that, because candidly , um, you know, whether there are events in isolation in our lives, you know, many, many, many events or a singular event or , um, you know, change, you know, politically change, all sorts of change impacts us. But you had some good slides that sort of talked about things we ought to be thinking about as we go through some of those experiences. Well, can you just share a little bit , um, about that? I don't want to get jump ahead further than you want go, but I, I , I do wanna make sure that we have an opportunity to just , um, land on some of the super powerful points , um, that you made when we, when we talked a few months ago.
Speaker 4:Yes. So, I wanna go back to something that you said , um, when you talked about hope.
Speaker 3:Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> ,
Speaker 4:I remember reading in a , in the newspaper , uh, this is many years ago, and it was about a completely unrelated topic, but this, this saying stuck in my mind, hope is not a strategy. Um, and you also coined a very interesting phrase when we were in Washington , uh, this notion of toxic positivity. And I, I do wanna come back to that, and I'll try to weave that in, but I'll also make a note. Um, I think in healthcare, we do tend to, to suffer a little bit from toxic positivity that we, we, we wanna put a spin on everything and make everything sound good. And what we wind up doing is we, we wind up distorting the reality of things, which I also think is a barrier to truly becoming , uh, resilient in a meaningful and productive and successful way. But let me ask you your question. You know, I think it really starts with being able to recognize the signs within yourself that something is not right. And to at least be open to the notion, for lack of a better word, that it could be something within you that, that you need help. You know, for me, the fact that I was going home every night and having a couple glasses of wine to sort of take the edge off, really should have been an indicator , uh, that, that things weren't quite right . Um, the fact that I was getting curt and short with the people that meant the most to me, the fact that I was doing nothing except doubling down on all the behaviors that have made me quote unquote , successful in my life, and nothing was really changing. I was just working harder and harder and harder, and just using the same tactics that I had used in the past, and I wasn't feeling any better. I mean, Michelle, I ignored probably every single warning sign that, that I should have seen, that something was, was not right within me that I needed to get help for, and I didn't. So I guess my first point would be, and I think we said this to the audience in June, just open your heart and your mind to the possibility that may be some of your behaviors and some of how you are feeling the , the anger, the frustration, the stress that becomes distress. And then we feel guilty about feeling all of those things. Just be open to the possibility that those could be signs. Um, for me, I'll , I'll try to simplify what was, and continues to be really Michelle , a day-to-day journey through , um, mindfulness and, and, and faith, frankly, which is different than hope. But for me, I think it starts with quieting your mind. Being, being, being committed, I'm gonna use that word, committed to having a period in your day, in the morning and in the evening where you're just sitting silently and reflecting on you as a person. What are your core values in life? What is your core purpose? And being very clear about that. And then also developing a, a really, a sense of detachment, if you will, nonjudgmental, detachment from the circumstances around you, from the people around you, from the things that are frustrating you. And beginning to focus on what we as individuals can control or influence and what we cannot. And for me, I think if, if, for me, when I began that process, which was frankly, silence and prayer in the morning, and silence and prayer in the evening, being very clear about my values, which made it easier to make decisions, it made it easier to respond to situations. And, and again, detaching, not allowing the behaviors or even the reactions of others to me, or to something that I did or decided, detaching myself from those reactions of others. Because when we allow ourselves to feel emotions that are anger or frustration, or feeling disrespected or whatever it is, because of how someone reacts to us, we actually give our power away. And, and the , the power over ourselves to control our own emotions. Emotions are within us. Nobody puts emotions in us. Things happen, and we allow ourselves to have emotions. And I began to come to a better understanding of how to manage my own reactions, my own emotions. And in that way, to begin to cultivate the self-awareness, the detachment, the ability to see what really was, rather than what I hoped would be. And that enabled me to begin to control my inner emotions, which in turn helped me focus more, helped me , uh, helped my energy level. Mm-Hmm . It boosted my immune system. It actually reduced some of my physical pain. And so I would say that's generally some of the topics we talked about in, in, yeah . And what helped me.
Speaker 3:I love, I love that. And I, I wanna come back as we, you know, sort of near the end of our time together to talk a little bit or just ask you to share. There's some really, really good books , um, that you shared , um, previously that I think would be helpful for our audience. I mean, listen, folks, we're lawyers, not, you know, psychol , you know, psychologist or, you know, therapy professionals. We're not, we're sharing a lot of our lived experience, but a lot of that has come through through reading. A lot of that has come through engagement with those in the beha behavioral health settings in communities. But there's some , uh, books that I think , uh, can be particularly helpful so far . I'm gonna come back to you to ask you about some of those titles, but before we get there, I would just say, you know, you made a comment about toxic positivity. You know, I actually read about that. I'd love to think that I coined that. I, I , but I read about it , um, at some point , um, in my life. Um, and I , I don't even know, you know , just , you know, picked up an article and started looking at it. And , you know, I, you know, I am an optimist sort of by default. I always sort of just, my orientation is that, you know, there is a greater good. And so I sort of start with that. And there is, you know, my , my glass is always sort of the calf full for sure. But when I came across this topic of toxic positivity, one of the things that , um, resonated for me, and it , it's so important, especially as we think about getting through things, is that, you know, my understanding of it is it as a, as a concept is the act of sort of avoidance , um, or just not dealing with negative emotions and sort of masking it with positivity. And, and I think of that in terms of, although we're navigating, whether it's the condition of your organization, whether it's your personal condition, your family, the world, simply focusing on the positive and not navigating through the challenges that are sort of the undercurrent, if you will, the more the , the more reality of stuff , um, is harmful, and in fact, it's toxic. And so, so is positivity important? Absolutely. Unequivocally, I am an eternal optimist, but it also requires that there be a willingness to deal with imperfection, that there be a willingness to deal with challenges or opportunities to be better, or shortcomings that we all have , um, by virtue of, you know , being human. And so I think that as I think about that, and as I think about this critically, critically important topic, I love the idea that getting to a healthier place from a behavioral health perspective, for some, especially for so many in our membership, is about acknowledging some of the other stuff that is as important as our physical health. It's as important as that walk you take in the morning. It's as important as that medication you take to manage your blood pressure or any other health , uh, issues that you may be navigating. But, but managing your behavioral health is as important as that, because what it does is it either allows you to have great maintenance, you know, like your morning walk, or it helps to surface something that may be just below the surface that might , um, supercharge, if you will, other, other areas , um, in, in your life. And so , um, that, that , um, that I just wanted to mention because as we think about the role of positivity and we think about the role of hopefulness, and we think about all of those things, which have an incredibly, incredibly important place, but it does , does require us to, to, to do the work, right? There is this element of doing the work. So we've only got a few minutes left. Do you, do you, there , are there some books that you would say are top of mind? You provided so many great insights , um, today, and I , I want, I want the audience to know that there are tools outside of conversations like this that could , um, be incredibly helpful to them from a , this is what I wanna read on my own time perspective. I know you had a whole list , um, some time ago, but I wonder if any of those , um, you might suggest , uh, might be good reads for , um, the audience as we have people for a few more minutes.
Speaker 4:Yes. I'm gonna just talk about one book, which is the Confident Mind. The Confident Mind, and it's written by a gentleman , uh, by the name of Nate Zinzer , who was on a faculty at West Point in a specialized psychology department. But Nate works with , uh, very high end Super Bowl type athletes. He works, of course, with the military, the bottom line of his life work as he articulates it in this book, the Confident Mind, and I believe it to be true, is that what you think about you become
Speaker 3:Mm
Speaker 4:Mm-Hmm <affirmative> . And it is , it is those tapes, Michelle , that run in your head. And this was, this was and is true for me. We all have childhood experiences, we have all have young adulthood experiences that influence our leadership behaviors today. But Nate's premise is you need to rewire your own thought process. You need to re hardwire those tapes that run in your head that cause you to have negative emotions, like feeling disrespected, feeling anger. It really helps you dive into why you're feeling that way , why you're thinking that way . And he gives you very positive and possible tools for truly rearranging how you think, which then becomes how you act, how you feel, which then becomes how you act. It all starts with our own inner thoughts, and it's those tapes that run in our head that we listen to the most. So I would offer that as a great book for the audience. I would also offer, and we did this in in June, you and I are always available to talk with people privately. One-on-one. We've been there, we've been through it. Uh, I'll make that offer again. Anyone can reach out to me confidentially, and I'm happy, happy to talk through or offer more resources or do anything I can to help, because I've been there. You've been there. And that's a big part of what the A HLA community is all about.
Speaker 3:I love that. I love when you often , um, when you say that because I think it's so true. There's so much power in community, and there's so much power in , um, eliminating , um, the sort of socialized isolation that comes along with , uh, going through a tough time or going through an experience or navigating change. So I think that's such , um, an important , um, it's just an important final comment. I, I, I think what I'd wanna leave our audience with , um, this morning is , um, it's morning for me is this idea of , um, we are here in service to one another as professionals, particularly in the healthcare industry, but this goes far beyond the healthcare industry. Our, our greatest, our greatest , um, asset as , um, parts of humanity as humans is really the ability to be present and to be available , uh, to one another. And thinking about how we engage in connection, how we create connection , uh, with each other, particularly as we navigate , uh, tough times. And I think all too often , um, we sometimes lose sight of that. You know, we are at a , a place in time where often people are so focused on the things that, that make us different. So focused on why we don't feel and show up and, and arrive in the exact same way , uh, every day. And the reality is , um, and it's so interesting, I was talking to a group last night about this, this very thing that we have way more in common than we do. Um, differently differences, right? We have more commonality than we do differences. And so as we think about , um, our, our, our state, our mental health, as we think about our way forward as professionals, I just encourage people to, you know, rely on each other, look for opportunities to , um, to connect. Um, because that human connection is so, so very powerful. And I , but I'd also encourage you to take a look at tools that may be available , um, in all of our , uh, respective communities. Thanks so much , uh, for your time. Flo , thank you , uh, for this conversation today . Today. I really appreciated the opportunity to connect like this.
Speaker 4:Always a pleasure, Michelle. And we'll look forward to seeing everyone in 2025 in San Diego.
Speaker 3:Thanks. Bye-Bye now.
Speaker 2:Thank you for listening. If you enjoy this episode, be sure to subscribe to a HLA speaking of health law wherever you get your podcasts. To learn more about a HLA and the educational resources available to the health law community, visit American health law org .