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Succeed or Struggle: How Health Care Joint Ventures Can Either Flourish or Flatline
Jerry Chang, Managing Director, BRG, speaks with Brynne Goncher, Vice President/Deputy General Counsel, Piedmont Healthcare, and Tom Hawk, Partner, King & Spalding LLP, about the factors that increase the likelihood of successful joint venture partnerships between health systems and other providers and the factors that increase the likelihood of struggling joint venture partnerships. They discuss some of the drivers and characteristics of the joint venture partnerships they are seeing; issues related to partner, operational, and financial alignment; and real-world anecdotes. Jerry, Brynne, and Tom spoke about this topic at AHLA’s 2025 Advising Providers: Legal Strategies for AMCs, Physicians, and Hospitals conference in Austin, TX. Sponsored by BRG.
Watch this episode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhO7v-oxw_Q
Learn more about BRG: https://www.thinkbrg.com/
Learn more about the 2025 Advising Providers conference that took place in Austin, TX: https://www.americanhealthlaw.org/advising-providers-legal-strategies-for-amcs-physi
Learn more about the 2026 Advising Providers conference that will take place February 11-13, 2026, in Las Vegas, NV: https://www.americanhealthlaw.org/advisingproviders
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Hello, everybody.
SPEAKER_05:I want to thank everybody for joining us today on our podcast. My name is Jerry Chang, and I'm a managing director and partner with BRG in Atlanta, Georgia. I want to start off by saying that the perspectives that me and my co-podcasters are going to give today are personal opinions and perspectives and not necessarily the perspectives of our respective firms or health system. So as I mentioned, I'm with BRG, and BRG is a professional services firm. We have over 1,500 colleagues here that serve clients, and we are spread out across 40 countries. plus different locations on six continents. And the three primary areas of service that we focus on are corporate finance, which is the group I'm in, and the evaluation and advisory services, financial advisory services practice. We also have an economics disputes and investigations group. And then finally, we have industry specialties, of which healthcare is one of our most important. So BRG really takes healthcare very seriously. I personally am in, as I mentioned, the corporate finance valuation practice. I serve clients and their counsel with valuation and financial advisory services for a number of different motivations. Of course, we're talking about joint ventures here today. So joint ventures, strategic partnerships, mergers, acquisitions, any type of transaction like that. I also, of course, do valuation financial advisory for regulatory compliance purposes, Stark Law, any kickback. Also, I testified as an expert witness, so I do litigation support as well as bankruptcy restructuring and financial reporting. So that's just a brief summary of my firm and what I do. I would like to give my fellow co-podcasters a chance to introduce themselves. So maybe we'll start with, I don't know, Brynn, do you want to start off? Sure.
SPEAKER_00:Sure. Hi, I'm Bryn Gonsher, VP, Deputy General Counsel of Piedmont Healthcare, which is a not-for-profit community health system comprised of about 22 locations, including 26 hospitals, excuse me, 2,200 locations, including 26 hospitals across the state of Georgia. Go ahead, Tom.
SPEAKER_04:Thanks. I'm Tom Hawk. I'm a partner at the law firm of King& Spalding, and I am in our Atlanta office on our healthcare team. I do healthcare transactional regulatory work, representing providers, handling a variety of different types of transactions from mergers, acquisitions, divestitures, joint ventures, topic of today, and also financial industry participants like private equity firms investing into the space. And I'm excited about the opportunity to do my very first podcast with Jerry and Bram.
SPEAKER_05:Great. Thanks a lot. So Tom and Bryn, as you recall, earlier this year, we were in Austin, Texas at the AHLA Advising Providers Conference. I believe the official name was Advising Providers, Academic Medical Centers, Hospitals, and Physicians. And we're in Austin. I do remember the tasty barbecue from going to some restaurants in Austin, all those great briskets there. But we presented some insights on joint ventures between health systems and other providers along the care continuum. And I'd like to expand on that talk that we had during this podcast, perhaps focus a little bit more on factors that uh increase the likelihood of joint venture partnerships that can flourish and then also maybe focus on some factors that increase the likelihood of a struggling joint venture relationship i think our audience uh would be interested in those insights and we can also share some you know some real world anecdotes uh sort of from the front lines of what we've seen and and related to joint venture partnerships that have flourished or maybe have struggled a bit. But starting off, I'd like to ask Tom and or Bryn to comment on just health joint ventures in general, including some of the drivers, characteristics, types of JVs that you're seeing out there. Either of you can start. Tom, you want to go first? Sure. Well, I mean, it's a
SPEAKER_04:question we have gotten a lot. focusing on joint ventures over the last three to five years, really, for a number of different reasons. I think we all operating in the healthcare industry space and doing deal work know the amount of scrutiny that has been on healthcare transactional activity, a variety of different types of transactions, both at the federal and state level over the past few years. And Providers looking to achieve their strategic goals have, in many cases, turned to joint ventures as a way to achieve some of their strategic goals that may have less regulatory scrutiny than a full alignment transaction like a merger or divestiture might have. In addition to that, things like attractive aspects of joint ventures are that you share risk, right? You share risk, you share capital, and so it can be a more cost-efficient way to achieve strategic objectives. And we've run the gamut and types of interest of joint ventures from very formal whole hospital JVs, although those are less common, but they occur, to joint ventures of a single imaging location or an ASC, for instance, and different transaction models from virtual joint ventures where no assets really move. You're just joint ventures on paper to full on joint operating companies that both partners contribute assets and capital into. So the interest is broad in a number of different ways and it's driven by a lot of different factors.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And, you know, as Tom, as you mentioned, you know, we're seeing a lot of partnerships either come to us or what we're doing in the oncology area, in the ortho area, ASCs, obviously, urgent care, imaging. Yeah. you know, post-acute care and then also on the lines of research, technology, MOBs. Those are the types that, you know, we have partners that are interested in doing that type of thing with us. And, you know, we're doing those types of things with other partners.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I'll just add a couple more. Just in my work as doing evaluation and financial advisory, I'm working with a client in physical therapy, contemplating a joint venture with a health system, as well as behavioral health. I think those are all areas that we're seeing a lot of. So great. So that lays the sort of the groundwork on our discussion. I would like to discuss some of these factors now that could lead to an increased likelihood of a successful joint venture, one that flourishes, and also some factors that may lead to less desirable joint venture partnerships. I think that's very important. I'd like to divide our discussion into sort of three different categories or dimensions that you know, that we can talk about. So number one would be the, sorry, the partner alignment dimension. The second category would be the operational alignment category. And then the third category that we can discuss would be the financial alignment category. So let's start with the partner alignment category. You know, when I, Tom and Bryn, when I think about partner alignment, I automatically think about like my spouse and some of the things that I had to think about before I decided to partner up with my spouse in a marriage and things that are pretty important. So what are some of the crucial factors that our audience should consider when they're looking at a potential joint venture partner from a partner alignment perspective. I don't know, Bryn, do you want to give your thoughts on maybe from your perspective in a nonprofit?
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so I think that one of the most important things for us has been to really understand our goal of a potential alignment and then to really do diligence on a potential partner's goal. You know, for us, it's going to be a lot of access to care, continuum of care, potentially gaining expertise in an area that we don't have expertise in that currently, maybe speed to market, but really understanding understanding, well, what is our goal and what are we trying to accomplish? And then understanding the partner, the potential partner, what are they trying to accomplish? And are we together going to be able to accomplish something that is even better than what both parties could do on their own?
SPEAKER_04:Great. Yeah, I completely agree with Bren. I think one, particularly in the joint venture space, underappreciated aspect of diligence in the transactional context is cultural diligence between two organizations. And it's really important. Sitting as outside counsel, I get to, you know, we represent nonprofit health systems, academic medical centers. for-profit companies, private equity companies. And each one has a very different feel, very different management styles, decision-making styles, ability to consult with stakeholders or need to consult with stakeholders. And many times the decision-making apparatus of one type of company, it just doesn't meld well with a different type of company for a variety of different reasons. And one's not better than the other, but it's just that they're different and may not be compatible. And so cultural diligence is really important. But I think, you know, a close second or equally important is what are you seeking to get out of it? And how does that align with what you know your partner, potential partner is seeking to get out of it? Are they Is this something that's strategic, like what Bryn mentioned about access to care and growing their care continuum, or are they a financial investor who is willing to make a return or needs to make a return within a certain window or is looking to make a return and get some liquidity within a certain window of time? And do those two things align and can they align? And other things like, is your partner, do they have experience being a joint venture partner? Do they have experience doing transactions? Do they know sort of how invasive and disruptive it sometimes can be? Are they clinically led or are they more business operator led? And what does that mean for how the parties work together? And then what is the two missions and can they align
SPEAKER_02:well?
SPEAKER_04:I said a lot, so I'll shut up now and let... Let you offer some thoughts, Jerry.
SPEAKER_05:It seems like if you really find a partner, Tom and Bryn, that you really do align with on these important facets or dimensions, it can maybe help in the future, too, if we encounter certain issues or things. Sometimes things don't go perfectly, right? And you might encounter some things that you have to work through. Do you feel like just putting that work up front will help down the road also in the joint venture partnership?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so, you know, we're coming as a nonprofit health care, you know, community health care system. We're coming from, you know, this is for the long term. This is this is for the community for the long term. And so can the more that we can work through the details in an LOI, those types of things, and really, really dig into, well, what is each partner going to bring to the joint venture? I think the more successful we have seen our joint ventures, both from an documenting the joint venture, but then from an operational perspective and really having that good rapport for the long term.
SPEAKER_04:Right. Yeah, I would say just to put a finer point on a particular aspect, I think it's really important and people often give lip service to it, but may not really do the work behind it. That is sort of the an agreed upon upfront, agreed upon, I guess, game plan for any major capital investment. So to the extent you're doing a joint venture for a cancer center of excellence, and there's gonna be a new building or orthopedic joint venture, and there's gonna be some new building, what is the budget for that? And there inevitably are gonna be cost overruns and any sort of thing like of that nature. And how is that handled? And we've seen this also in the context of joint ventures for value-based care plans, where you get into some of the risks of operating a health plan and how that operates or at least sharing risk in the value-based care context. And to the extent there are losses there, how is that going to be funded? All that needs to be very clearly agreed upon up front with a fair amount of diligence and financial diligence backing it up.
SPEAKER_05:Before we move on to the next category, Tom and Brynn, do you have any anecdotal examples of, and obviously we're not gonna mention any confidential client names or anything like that. And so just wondering if you have any examples of cultural issues that may have led to partnerships that have flourished and then others that may have led to more challenges.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, so for cultural issues, I would, a few examples I have are the instances when business leadership may not have experience, a ton of experience in operating professional clinical organizations clashes with clinical leadership. And For budgetary reasons, for quality of care reasons, you can't operate a physician practice like you can operate a Burger King for a variety of reasons. And so those sorts of cultural issues can surface pretty quickly when there's misalignment.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and I would say kind of going back to my LOI point, I think that we try to, you know, be very thoughtful in how we approach And how detailed we are in our LOIs, so that way we can really determine at the LOI level, is this the right partner for us? Because we're spending a lot of time, we're spending a lot of money in putting together a joint venture, and it... you know, we found that really spending that time parsing through an LOI is where we can determine, is this the right partner for what we are trying to achieve?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. And I would just observe that in the negotiation process of the LOI itself, Frictions and how people deal with that friction is going to be a predictor of future compatibility.
SPEAKER_05:It's like taking someone golfing. You can figure out a lot about someone just by taking a round of golf with them, right? Things like integrity, honesty, courtesy.
SPEAKER_04:One of my law partners has a phrase, which is common, but it's how you do anything or how you do the little things is how you do everything.
SPEAKER_05:That's right.
SPEAKER_03:That's
SPEAKER_05:so true. Okay, let's move on to our second dimension or set of factors that could lead to a joint venture partnership that would flourish versus maybe flatline. The second would be the operational alignment category. And so we talked a little bit about the cultural and how important it was to have fit with the organization, the history, the culture, the vision, mission goals. Now let's turn to some factors that... that affect operation and make sure that those are aligned. Things like, I guess, governance, decision-making, growth plan. Brynn or Tom, can you expand on some of your insights and perspectives on some of these operational alignment factors that are crucial to a successful joint venture?
SPEAKER_00:So maybe I'll just go first and kind of talk about from my perspective what, you know, I think it's going back to the goals of what we are looking to get out of a joint venture that kind of leads to how we negotiate and what type of governance we want to have in place. If we are really looking to a partner who really knows an area that we don't know as well, yes, we'll probably have a management agreement in place, but we may give a little bit on some of the data, some of the operational pieces in the joint venture agreement. If we are trying to learn something from the, learn how to do this on our own, maybe we might have more of the day-to-day piece. So I think that the goals really dictate so much of how we negotiate and what we try to get into a joint venture agreement.
SPEAKER_04:I totally agree, Bryn. I think a couple of additional observations. And this runs the gamut, right, to Bryn's point about the level of control, the level of governance input that each partner may want to have to the extent it's a joint venture where it's either 50-50 or close to 50-50. You'll see many times very joint levels of control, even if there is a management agreement in place. But if it's more of a minority partner, majority partner, joint venture, it may be a true passive investment almost, like a shareholder in a corporation where you get to have some input on major decisions. But other than that, that's your partners running with the business. And just clear alignment on that and clarity on what each party expects. And it needs to be in the governance documents hardwired. And I think it's critically important to have sort of the decision-making process for major decisions hardwired in the documents. because management teams change, people move on from one job to the next, and the organizations are still going to be there and they're still going to be partners. And so how sort of the constitution, if you will, of the relationship needs to be set forth clearly so that when things happen in the future, they can, you know, you can chart a path to addressing any issues.
SPEAKER_05:It does seem like, Tom, and Brennan, that, you know, just thinking of these various scenarios that could occur as the joint venture operates. There's things like, well, what's the duration? What's each party's expectations on duration? What happens if there's a change in control of one of the parties? There could be commitment expectations. So I believe that's what you're trying to describe is all these potential scenarios and go ahead and address that upfront.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think that one of the things as we were prepping for this podcast, we were talking about just the hardwiring, when meetings will take place, things as really as basic as that or as detailed as that. I mean, you have to expect that there will be disagreements. What happens when there is a disagreement? Are you going to... Put stuff in the agreement that says parties have to sit down together face to face within X days and work through something before anything else happens. You know, how are you going to really work through all of that? I think the other piece that, you know, if it's for a long term arrangement, there are going to be management changes over that period of time. And, you know, when you have a new person coming in, it's a lot easier to pull to a joint venture document that says, okay, here are the steps when this happens, when there is a disagreement or, oh, there are meetings every quarter at such and such location. So it just makes operations a lot easier and a lot more seamless and it's a lot more likely to lead to success for both parties when you can sit down and have those types of provisions in the JV agreement itself.
UNKNOWN:Okay.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, and I think in addition to those, Bryn, you need to contemplate that this is a partnership. And unfortunately, partnerships sometimes don't work out. And so there needs to be agreement on how to extricate yourself from the joint venture if certain triggers happen, if financial performance you know, doesn't pan out the way you thought or if there's a change of control of the partner, you know, what happens in those scenarios and to the extent that there is sort of an exit right, how is that valued? And that's where, you know, people like Jerry can help you work through how you should value something like that under those circumstances and different factors that may be taken into account. But there needs to be a path outside of just burning down the house litigation to getting to extricating yourself from a venture that's not producing.
SPEAKER_05:Brendan, Tom, are there certain triggers that our audience should be aware of to address certain issues on an operational basis going forward as the joint venture proceeds?
SPEAKER_04:Well, we've seen a number of different, I guess, triggers. around financial performance, for instance, around workforce, if certain physician workforce falls below a certain level or certain key physicians were to leave or certain percentage of physicians were to leave, if that's the particular venture. Or if, for instance, if the joint venture were to operate a behavioral health center, for instance, between a health system and an outside provider of behavioral health healthcare, you might have a time-based trigger for when you expect to have the business be operational, you know, to get the CO in and to get the construction finished and get operational. And sometimes there are triggers around that. And in all of those cases, again, there needs to be, there needs to be a path once those triggers have been triggered to figure out what the next steps are. If there's, if there needs to be unwinding or other ways to address it.
SPEAKER_05:Great. Well, before we move to the next and final category of alignment factors, are there any anecdotal examples from an operational perspective that any of you can think about that led to a successful joint venture or maybe one that led to something that was more challenging?
SPEAKER_00:So, you know, and maybe this is more on the lines of just in general as opposed to specific examples, but, you know, I've found that when we're able to bring the day-to-day operators that will have, you know, face-to-face contact with the joint venture partner on a daily basis, per se, and really bringing them in on the front hand and asking them, you know, well, what do you expect from an operational perspective to get out. What types of commitment do you want from these partners? And having those conversations and those discussions between the parties up front and not just including the leaders that are up here negotiating the overall transaction, but really getting the people involved who are gonna be doing the day-to-day operations. We found that that has been very successful in a successful long-term joint venture.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I would say in terms of operational alignment success, when one of the two partners has the expertise that the venture needs to operate the business. To the extent that two partners come together to form a joint venture to enter into yet another line of business, a third line of business that neither partner has any particular expertise in, but that they may just want to enter for different reasons. Those have been less successful. And, you know, one particular area that I have had experience in having to unwind a few transactions has been in the health plan space when health systems operate health plans and joint ventures with other, either with physician groups or with other health systems and, you know, like everybody on this call knows that health insurance is a very complicated and capital intensive business. And it's one that you really have to know what you're doing to successfully operate a health plan. And so many times for health systems that started those and didn't work out so well, we've had to assist with the unwinding process.
SPEAKER_05:Okay, great. All right, so we've talked about the partner alignment dimension of joint ventures, and we've also talked about the operational alignment factors. The third and final one would be the financial. So we've talked about partner alignment, operational alignment, and now comes the money part. And it seems like the financial alignment factors span the whole continuum of the joint venture from pre-joint venture to ongoing as joint venture operates. And they could be at the end as well. I happen to do a lot of my work on the front end as an evaluation financial advisor, helping the parties understand the contributions that are going in on the front end. And I can tell you that that's a very important part of whether a joint venture is going to succeed or not, because both parties have to understand what each party is bringing to the table, right? And sometimes there's a disagreement on that. It also depends on what type of, I guess, structure when it comes to determining the percentage ownership of the joint venture. It could be a top-down where Both parties have a set percentage in mind, let's say 51-49 or 50-50, or it could be more of a bottoms up where they're just like, here's what we're contributing. And whatever the value of each side is, is going to determine the percentage ownership they want to venture. And as you know, as our audience probably knows, there can be a host of a wide variety of different types of assets, services that can be contributed. Everything from tangible assets to intangible assets. So a tangible asset would be just think about hard assets like real estate or personal property, furniture, fixtures, equipment. And then you could have actually a whole business. I had a joint venture where there was a children's hospital that was going to do it or contemplate a joint venture with a pediatric unit of a acute care hospital. So I actually had to value both businesses. And then the third category is just intangible assets. So you might have a brand that one party is bringing or intellectual know-how or intellectual property or proprietary know-how. And so you just continuum of different assets, what I call harder to value assets, which is on the intangible side. And then you've got the easier to value assets, which is on the tangible side. And then business valuation is kind of right in the middle. So I think it's very important that both parties come together up front and really understand what each side is contributing and whether they perceive that having value. I've had one party say, hey, we're bringing all this proprietary know-how for the service line. And the other party's like, well, yeah, they do have some know-how, some processes, protocols, but we think that we have, you know, protocols that are just as valuable. And so just getting all that out there and talking about the methodology also, talking about the methodology, talking about the key assumptions, especially when you're jointly engaged, oftentimes I'm jointly engaged by both joint venture partners to do the evaluation advisory. And it's good to have everyone on every call and being able to just be very transparent about perceptions on what's being contributed, the perception of value. So that's kind of on the front end. You know, Tom and Bryn, as far as ongoing, or maybe even some front end that I didn't mention, do you have any thoughts on important financial considerations to contribute to a, or increase the likelihood of a flourishing joint venture versus one that maybe struggles?
SPEAKER_04:Well, you know, my key observation about this last factor is that money solves a lot of problems and a lack of money creates a lot of problems and will exacerbate any of the other factors we had already talked about. So I do think in addition to the important work about valuing each party's contribution, there needs to be, and this is non-legal, but there needs to be, you know, clear and focused business diligence on the business plan of the venture itself. That it is a, you know, you kick the tires on the business plan and it makes sense. The business teams both, you know, say grace over it and bless it because it's, the problems really come up when the business plan is, just was faulty to begin with uh frankly and and that that just creates problems across all the other factors that we've we've talked about so that's that is that is key uh and then other sort of big financial agreements are you know to the extent this business is throwing off or generating positive uh cash flow what happens to that is that uh reinvested in the business Is it distributed to the members? Are there mandatory? If the venture is a taxable entity, and many times it is, are there mandatory tax distributions hardwired in to the governance documents? What does all that look like? Brent, I don't know if you have any other thoughts.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I guess in terms of valuation and things like that, I find that you know, if it's going to be something like an imaging center or, you know, something that is outwardly facing to the public, a joint venture, really discussing the naming of that particular imaging joint venture, you know, whatever the, or, you know, other hospital, will that have both parties' names in it? Will it just have one party's name? I think that that really is important from a valuation perspective, just to be able to show from a branding, what are you bringing to this? I think another thing is really understanding what the different part the services that each party is going to be providing, even though those are sometimes done through, you know, as I said before, a management agreement, it still helps you understand the expertise and what each party is expected to do and thereby, you know, kind of frames the financial piece a bit.
SPEAKER_04:Great. I'll go ahead, Tom. Just on Bryn's point about the branding piece in particular, it's really important to get agreement upon how the venture will be branded, but also the limitations of that branding. We have clients that are very rightly possessive over their brand and don't want it tarnished in any way. And so, you know, any limitations around use of their brand or if there were an issue at the particular venture that would harm the brand, how is that dealt with?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, definitely a good point. Now that we have talked about the front end and the ongoing financial considerations, it seems like there's also some considerations to think about on the back end. For instance, if there's some type of transfer or sale or exit event, sometimes I'm brought in to do evaluation work and advisory on the back end when some of those events occur. What are your thoughts on financial considerations as you unwind or potentially unwind or have some event that occurs that could possibly end a joint venture?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I guess maybe I'll just go first speaking from a nonprofit healthcare system. There might be certain purchasers of a joint venture partner that we may not be interested in partnering with. And so we will try to do everything that we can to have just complete approval rights. The type of partner it is may not allow that. And so then going back to the goals that we are looking for with respect to this joint venture, if the partner is sold or sells, do we want the right to buy out the joint venture maybe? Or are we like, no, we wanna sell it. And so really going back to what are we looking to get out of it may dictate how we frame our negotiations on a change of control.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I think that's exactly right. And I would say that depending on the type of joint venture that the parties are running or health system like Brent's client enters into, may also drive their comfort level. For instance, if a health system has a service line joint venture that's operating out of their main campus, there may be red lines about partners that they really have to stick to versus an offsite urgent care center or something like that. So it depends and underscores the importance of predetermined agreement on exits. Is there a right at first refusal to Bryn's point? Are there? Drag along rights, if a partner wants to sell, can you sell as well? Or if you want to sell it, can you require your partner to sell or tag along? So, yeah, those are all things you've got to have agreement on and clarity on up front.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I'll just give an anecdotal example of a situation I saw recently where I believe it's setting the joint venture up for success and flourishing. I had a project where I was jointly engaged by a health system and a specialty. And they insisted that both parties be on the phone when they talked to me and we started starting to talk about potential assets to be valued, services to be valued, that each side was contributing, very open, transparent, nothing was opaque. even talked about methodology. Here's some of the methodologies we're planning on using. And then also maybe even some of the key assumptions. And I remember one call where both parties were on, representatives from both potential partners were on the phone. And we were talking about one of the assets and the assumptions that we felt were reasonable and supportable from a fair market value perspective. And I remember being surprised surprised that one of the parties said, oh, I think you're being a little conservative on that assumption for the other side, which actually increased the value of that particular asset. But it was just the environment of building trust, and I think that that is going to set them up for success because they're just very transparent, very open, very cordial, respectful. They do disagree on some things, but being able to just build that trust, I think, was very important in the Example I saw.
SPEAKER_04:It goes back to the cultural diligence point and cultural fit that we began with.
SPEAKER_05:And you can see here that even though we did divide up these factors into three categories, they really are integrative, right? They're not really cleanly divided into financial, operational, and cultural or partner alignment. It really is a holistic perspective because it There's some factors in financial that will affect operational and vice versa. The alignment on the culture. Do you agree with that, Brynn? I
SPEAKER_00:do. Yeah. I mean, I think numerous times during our conversations and, you know, both here and prepping, you know, one, we had a hard time really saying which should come first, right? You know, because I think they... One could say sometimes this comes first, sometimes another. And I think throughout this conversation, we've really been going back and forth, going back to the operational, going back to the goals, all of those things, even while we're talking about financials and vice versa. So it's really all interconnected.
SPEAKER_04:Totally
SPEAKER_05:agree.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Well, I think we'll end on that note. I want to thank my co-podcasters. This was my first podcast also, so this was a great experience with Tom and Bryn. I feel privileged just to be able to do this podcast with them. Also, I want to thank our audience for joining us. We really enjoy sharing this topic. As I mentioned, we shared this topic in Austin earlier this year, and we were able to to parlay that into this podcast for a wider audience. And speaking of parlay, you know, the conference we're at, the AHLA Advising Providers Conference is going to be in Las Vegas, I believe, next year. So we look forward to possibly running into some of you there. And if you need to reach us, we're all on LinkedIn. Feel free to connect with us and we'd be happy to answer any questions you have. If you want to discuss any topic that we discussed today, we would be happy to do so. Any final words, Tom and Bryn?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, just I wanted to say thank you to Jerry and to Tom for inviting me to participate in this. I really enjoyed working with you all, both for prepping for Austin and prepping for this. So thank you. And thank you to AHLA. Yes,
SPEAKER_04:definitely. Yeah, I'll just echo what Bryn said. Thank you to... Jerry and Bren, thank you to BRG for sponsoring as well.
SPEAKER_05:Great. I hope everybody has a great, great day or great evening or whatever time of day you're watching this. And we'll talk to you soon.
SPEAKER_01:To subscribe and add this private podcast feed to your podcast app, go to AmericanHealthLaw.org slash Daily Podcast. you