AHLA's Speaking of Health Law

Conversations with AHLA Leaders: Cindy Reisz, AHLA President Elect (2020-2021)

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This special series highlights AHLA leaders who discuss key moments in their careers, current and future trends in health law, and AHLA’s role in their professional development. In this episode, Chip Hutzler, Director, Horne LLP, interviews Cindy Reisz, Partner, Bass Berry & Sims, who is AHLA President Elect for the 2020-2021 year (President for the 2021-2022 year). Cindy talks about her career in health law and how the future of health care lies in value-based care.

Cindy also tells Chip:

  • How she got into health law after working in Bass Berry’s corporate and securities group.
  • How her mentors engaged in “teaching by osmosis.”
  • How she deals with information overload.
  • Her favorite cities to visit when traveling for work.
  • How Bono influenced what her plaque will say when she’s inducted into the “Health Lawyer Hall of Fame.”

Sponsored by Horne LLP.

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Speaker 1:

In this special series, A H L A, leaders discuss key moments in their careers, current and future trends in health law, and a h L a's role in their professional development support for A H L A. And this series is provided by horn, which provides proactive guidance and strategies to enhance efficiency, improve patient experience, increase market share, and position you for greater success. Horn Healthcare serves over 600 clients across 31 states. For more information, visit horn lllp.com.

Speaker 2:

This is Chip Husler. I'm a director with the firm Forum in their healthcare team.

Speaker 3:

Today my guest is Cindy Reese. Cindy is a partner at Bass and Sims, well known health law firm in Nashville, Tennessee. And a cert, certainly a well-known health lawyer. She's also the president-elect of A H L A and will be, uh, the president in the 20, 21, 22 year. So everyone at H L A is looking forward to that as well. And we're great to have this opportunity to talk to Cindy just about, a little bit about her health law career and how she got to where she got. So let's get started. Cindy, tell me, how did you decide to get into health law?

Speaker 4:

Well, thanks, thanks Chip for having me on here. I really appreciate this opportunity. Um, how did I get into health law? Well, let's see. I graduated from Vanderbilt Law School in the mid eighties and joined Bass, Farian Sims, but I was in the corporate and securities group, so we were doing a lot of public offerings, leveraged buyouts, private placements, you know, m and a type work. And being in Nashville, which even back then was a, a hub for healthcare and for entrepreneurs who were starting new healthcare companies, it seemed like, you know, every week. Um, I just spent so much time learning the business of these various clients that we were working with, that I just developed an interest in understanding their business, understanding how they operated. I could get my head around, you know, what healthcare was about, and I loved learning about whether it was a health system or it was a surgery center company, or even, you know, population management, uh, companies that were getting started back then. I just loved learning about all these different areas, and I guess I felt drawn to focusing more on working with these companies as opposed to just taking'em public or taking them private. And so I guess about in the mid nineties, I moved into what we called our healthcare group at the time. Uh, Patricia Metter was the chair of the, the group. And I know many folks listening to this podcast Will, will know and, and remember Patricia Fondly. She was very involved with a H L A over the years, and she, um, asked me to be part of the team. And so that's kind of how I got into it. Um, a combination of just wanting to learn more about the business and, and also, um, wanting to be part of that team that Vaser Sims was creating.

Speaker 3:

That's great. And you mentioned Patricia. What, what, was she someone who really inspired you or was there anybody else that really inspired you, uh, uh, to get into this And, and what was it about them that you noticed that made them sort of so special or, or or special to you?

Speaker 4:

Yeah, Patricia was definitely one of those people because she was just so good at understanding the client and understanding the healthcare issues. And, you know, she had also been a nurse in her prior life before law school, so she had a better, um, understanding of the clinical side of, of healthcare. Um, so yes, she was certainly one, there were two folks that I have always considered my mentors as well, both of whom were at, at Bury and Sims, who I worked with a lot. You know, right out of the gate when I first joined the firm, they were two senior partners in our corporate securities groups, Jim Cheek and, and Brad Reed. And both of them, um, did a lot of teaching by basically osmosis. They would let me sit in the conference room and we would be negotiating transactions with, you know, firms from all over, you know, New York, Chicago, wherever. And I watched, I watched how they learned and understood what their clients were trying to achieve. They took a lot of time to think about, you know, what's the best way to do that? And then they found a way to make it happen. And sometimes they had to tell a client, well, you can't really put this deal together the way you want to because that's going to create, maybe it was antitrust issues or something along those lines. And, um, but they found a way to help the client achieve whatever that goal was. And I just really respected the way they treated their clients, the way they treated counsel on the other side, um, and treated the team. You know, I mean, they were always willing to, to teach me and to answer questions, even if they were probably pretty basic questions as a, you know, second, third year associate. But I really felt like they were the kind of, um, advisor that I wanted to be when I, you know, grew up and became a partner.

Speaker 3:

That's great. Was there any one moment you can point to as sort of the key moment in your health law career or development when you can look back and say, that's when I knew that I, that this was for me, or this was what I was meant to do,

Speaker 4:

This was what, this was where I was supposed to be. Yeah. Wow. You know, there've been a lot of those in some respects because every time we closed a big transaction for a client and they either, you know, became larger or they sold to another company, and it was, you know, exactly what they were hoping to have happen, it was going to launch them into the next phase of their life as, as an organization or they put a joint venture together. Um, I just felt like, you know, we have done something that really helped these clients move to the next phase of making healthcare better. Um, and that always, you know, really just made me feel like I, I was making a difference. But I do think personally for me, honestly, the pinnacle to me was the day that Marilyn Lamar called me and told me that I'd been selected as the president-elect delegate, right. Um, and I was actually in Miami because I was going to the Miami Open, so I was down your way, chip, I was getting ready to head to the tennis tournament and I, I just, that's great. Burst into tears. I'm like, oh my gosh, it happened. You know? And, and so personally, I think that made me feel as though, you know, I've, that's great. I've worked this hard and I've gotten to this point and now I have an opportunity to lead an organization that is, you know, it's mission is to focus on those who work in health law, whether they're lawyers or consultants or compliance professionals or whoever, and be part of making a difference with a H L A

Speaker 3:

That, uh, fantastic. And, you know, that is gotta be a great moment for people. Many of my great moments in health law have been because of A H L A, I can tell you that. Um, and, and, and that's why I love being a part of it so much. So do you, given that sort of the seat you're in, which is a very unique seat, do you have a, an outlook on the future of health law? Where do you think it, it might be heading? Do you have any thoughts on, on where you think things might be heading as we kind of come out of the pandemic and head into this new world that we live in,

Speaker 4:

This brave new world? Uh, y you know, I mentioned earlier that, that back when I first started practicing law, there were some, you know, population health management type companies that were kind of in their infancy, but, um, whether it was diabetes management or geriatric care, but truly, I think the future of healthcare is headed in a direction that took what those companies did. And now that we have so much, um, more sophisticated, you know, technology and artificial intelligence and, you know, the ability to really gather data, synthesize it, understand it, make decisions about how to provide healthcare to our population here and, and improve their care, that I think the future of, of healthcare and health law is headed in exactly that direction. I think value-based care, value-based arrangements, uh, paying for performance as opposed to volume, I think we have evolved as an industry to where we are much more sophisticated than we, than we were back when these, these programs first began. And I think the results are more tangible. And you guys probably see this chip when you all are, you know, helping clients with valuations and things like that. You, you can, you can put a value on that now because we're much better at it. And the government, of course is behind it. I mean, you know, you look at CM S'S goals of how much they want to move towards reimbursement in the value-based care arena versus fee for service by 2030. I think we're well on that on the way there. And I, I feel very, uh, positive and excited about the direction that healthcare is going because I think it is truly going to make a difference in how patients are treated and, you know, the, the coordinated way that patients are treated, as opposed to having six different doctors, you know, working with you without everybody collaborating and figuring out, you know, what's the best way to treat this patient. And so I'm excited about that.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I agree with you. I think this idea that, um, we're coordinating things a little more, it is starting to mature a little bit more mm-hmm.<affirmative>, I think, um, you know, there was a time when the business model of healthcare was not really paid much attention to, and then it started to be, and, and now that's maturing a little bit, the ability to analyze the business side, um, of things to make sure it doesn't get in the way of the healthcare, right, yeah.

Speaker 4:

Side of it. Exactly. Exactly.

Speaker 3:

But yeah, that's a great point. I I I love that thought. Um, are there any challenges you faced over the years and, you know, that have been difficult but that you were able to get through and, and what'd you do to get through'em?

Speaker 4:

Hmm. Well, there have probably been many challenges and some I've preferred to block out of my memory, so I don't have to<laugh> think about what I went through. Um, well for, I guess part of it, part of my challenge, one of my challenges was the ability to absorb a lot of information. I mean, healthcare is such a heavily regulated industry and you know, when I was a corporate and securities lawyer, I was learning, you know, I was reading the s e C rules and getting up to speed on, you know, how to write a, you know, an S one registration statement and keeping up with what the S e C was doing. Well that's nothing compared to what we look at every day in healthcare, right? Um, and

Speaker 3:

Yeah, people joke about the tax code, it's tax code is pretty easy compared to the right tax codes complicated, but health law is as complicated, if not more

Speaker 4:

Than the tax. And it, and it changes through, you know, the, the rules coming out from so many different agencies, whether it's C M S O I G F D A F T C, you know, it just goes on and on and, and then you have advisory opinions and you have fraud alerts, and you have of course case law, I mean, everyone has that, but it's just an enormous mountain of information that you really want to be able to get your arms around and be able to remember, oh, this is where that issue was addressed previously and here's, here's what the OIG said. Um, and that's, that can be a challenge to, you know, people even if you, even if you have a photographic memory, which I do not. Um, and so that was one big challenge that you face every day. But I think I've just gotten to the point after, you know, 35 years of, of doing this that I'm just gonna have to go look it up sometimes. And it's okay. And it's okay to tell the client, I think I know what the answer is to this question, but I wanna go be sure. So let me go look at a couple of things and I'll call you back. And I used to be so nervous about doing that, um, and that was a big challenge.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, no, that's absolutely true. And I think clients understand that it's complicated and it's a lot of why a H L A has been so relevant over the years because they're helping people sift through the, the, the, the volume of, uh, absolutely. Of regulations and so on. Um, so I'll say Nashville, one of my favorite places to visit. Do you have favorite places you get to visit over the years you live in Nashville? It's hard to beat Nashville, but

Speaker 4:

It's hard to beat Nashville. And, uh, but yes, I, I have always loved visiting New York. Um, I just think it's such a vibrant city. I lived there half a summer one year when I was a summer clerk in law school. Yeah. And loved it. Um, you might have

Speaker 3:

Been there same summer. I lived there one summer too.

Speaker 4:

Really? Well,

Speaker 3:

It was at the same time.

Speaker 4:

It was, it was different. I mean, I had never lived in a city that big and, and so I did know that I couldn't live there permanently<laugh>, it just, I needed more green grass. I, you know, I needed a little bit of a slower pace. Um, but, but I do love the city. It's just, you know, and I look forward to Broadway opening back up and all those amazing restaurants and, and the, the galleries and the museums. I just think it's, it's a fascinating place. Uh, Chicago's another city I really like, um, and have been there several times, similar things, but not quite as overwhelming as New York. And then my, my last one I would say is probably, um, it's a toss up between San Diego and, and San Francisco.

Speaker 3:

Right.

Speaker 4:

Um, cuz those are just such beautiful cities and you're right there on the coast and, and you're, you know, a drive away from, you know, in San Francisco's case to, you know, Napa and Sonoma. And, and I just think it's such a beautiful part of our country.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. I mean, I lived in California for a while, four or five years, but, and then I married someone from Florida, but yeah, if I could convince her and her family to move out to California, I sure would.<laugh>. That's great.

Speaker 4:

I don't blame you. Um,

Speaker 3:

Well, you know, they have some taxes, but other than

Speaker 4:

That<laugh> Yeah. That, that appears to be driving a lot of them to Nashville, to Tennessee. I know we have a lot of, in Florida,<laugh> California and New York and Illinois, they're just Yes. Coming here in droves.

Speaker 3:

Well, so got one more for you. And, and, and this one, you know, is when I asked some others, see where, where you go with it. So when they induct you in the Health Lawyer Hall of Fame as a, as a rockstar that you will be, um, and you know it's coming, what is your plaque gonna say on the wall about Cindy? What's it gonna say? What, what do you want people to remember you for when it comes to health law?

Speaker 4:

Okay, so you're gonna laugh, but I knew you were gonna ask me this question, so I, I, I said, okay, I just need to see what other people have said when they were asked, you know, what does it mean to be, you know, pronounced as a rockstar? And so<laugh>, I actually found this quote, and I'm gonna read the quote and then I'm gonna tell you how I think it applies to me. So, so Bono said, as a rockstar, I have two instincts. I want to have fun and I want to change the world. I have a chance to do both. So I am by no means bono or the equivalent of Bono in the rockstar world, but I do think I have the same two instincts. I, I have fun practicing healthcare law. I really do enjoy it. I mean, it's hard, but I love it. And I like to think I've changed a small part of the world, uh, uh, you know, by guiding the clients that I do work with. And by the, the efforts I've made in terms of what a H L A has has been involved in, in, uh, doing, in terms of educating and serving as a resource to the health law community. So I'm just sort of copying bono's ideas even though I'm not Bono<laugh>

Speaker 3:

Cannot say it any better than that. And really appreciate your being with us, Cindy, thank you so much for the time and the insight and for spending a few minutes with us talking about what you've been through. It'll definitely be informative to others. So really appreciate that. And with that, we will sign off. Thank you so much.

Speaker 4:

Thank you, chip.

Speaker 1:

Thank you for listening. If you enjoy this episode, be sure to subscribe to a H L A speaking of health law, wherever you get your podcasts. To learn more about a H L A and the educational resources available to the health law community, visit American health law.org.