AHLA's Speaking of Health Law
AHLA's Speaking of Health Law
Being a Working Mom During the Pandemic: Perspectives from Four Health Care Attorneys
Stephanie Hudson, Managing Member, Hudson Healthcare Lawyers LLC, speaks with Theresa Langley, Associate, Husch Blackwell LLP, Lori Mihalich-Levin, CEO and Founder, Mindful Return, and Lauren Suttell, Partner, Lippes Mathias Wexler Friedman LLP, about how the pandemic has changed the lives of working moms. They discuss what life was like before the pandemic and how everything changed in March 2020, the transition to remote work and school, and challenges related to childcare. They also share tips and strategies that they have used to adjust to work and life during the pandemic and discuss how to transition back to the office and classroom.
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Speaker 2:So welcome to the mom's podcast. This is a podcast that was thought of by four of us on this call. We'll give our introductions in just a second. But the purpose of the Mom's podcast was to talk about all of the little, uh, issues that popped up, um, life before the pandemic, life during the pandemic, life after the pandemic, all the things that popped up during the context or in the context of being a working mom who works specifically in the healthcare field as an attorney. Um, and so we thought that this podcast would just be a good idea because we don't really hear very often about that experience, um, from a mom's perspective. So we have on the phone four mothers, um, with children at various ages and stages of life. Um, all of us are working mothers who are working in the healthcare field as attorneys in some capacity or have. And so I am Stephanie Hudson. I am a attorney transactional health law attorney who started her career, um, working primarily within house, um, hospitals and health systems. I recently transitioned to owning my own firm and opening another company that continues to work with hospitals and healthcare systems. Um, in addition to being an adjunct professor, I currently have one 13 month old little boy named Teddy, and I have another one that is due here in December. So I'm gonna kick it over to Teresa, uh, who's one of our other speakers today. They give a quick introduction, and then I think we'll have Lori and then Lauren give their introductions as well.
Speaker 3:Hi, I'm Teresa Langley. Um, I'm an associate at Hush Blackwell and I'm in their healthcare regulatory practice. So I also work with provi healthcare providers, um, hospital systems, and I'm in Austin, Texas. I have one 16 month old daughter named Rena. And then, um, I can pass it over to Laurie.
Speaker 4:Wonderful. Hi everybody, this is Laurie Mahalick Levin. I feel like I'm probably the on, on the older side here in terms of kid ages. I have two boys who are eight and 10 years old and are in third and fifth grade. Um, I am a healthcare attorney and I'm also the owner of a program that I founded called Mindful Return that helps new parents transition back to work after parental leave. Um, on the healthcare side, I was a partner at Dentons, uh, for about six years up until the summer I left to start my own firm called the G M E Group, where I work on, on graduate medical education, reimbursement issues around residency programs. And, um, on the mindful return side, I lead a program that helps new moms and new dads transition back after having a baby. And, um, ad different employers currently offer the program as a parental benefit.
Speaker 5:Hi, I'm Lauren Subtle. Uh, I am a mom of three younger-ish kids. I have a six-year-old son, a four and a half year old daughter, and a three-year-old son. Um, on the legal side of things, I'm a partner at a mid-size law firm, uh, in Buffalo, New York with offices in New York, in Florida and Washington dc. Um, I practice mostly in the healthcare transactions space, working with medical groups, practice management companies, IPAs, uh, hospitals, hospital systems, and, uh, a variety of, uh, other interesting and new forms of joining together to provide healthcare services. I also specialize in, uh, the not-for-profit and tax exempt org space, and I'm an adjunct professor at the local law school here in Buffalo.
Speaker 2:Very nice. Welcome everyone. Very excited to have such a diverse group of people who talk about these issues. So, jumping right in, I think the interesting thing about the four of us is that two of us were, um, mothers pre pandemic and still have a wealth of, of knowledge about what life was like before the pandemic, and then two of us actually became mothers during the pandemic. So, uh, Lauren, since you were the last to, to give an intro, do you wanna kick it off as to, uh, what life was like pre pandemic and, and in the context of, you know, what, what was work-life balance? What was, you know, mom life like, what was r what were your routines, uh, before the pandemic hit and, and client expectations and pressures?
Speaker 5:Yeah, so interestingly, if you, if you look at the ages of my kids now com compared to the ages of, uh, your kids and, and Teresa's kids, my kids were much younger then. Um, so, and then they were, they were your kids' age, um, that they are, they are now. So I had, I had an infant and two toddlers when, um, you know, pre pandemic times. So their needs were much more hands-on than they are now, which has its own demands. Um, but their needs were also a bit simpler, uh, than their needs, uh, are now. So our approach to, and the, the parental, uh, aspect of things was, was quite different than it is because kids grow up and change so quickly. Um, pandemic or no pandemic, uh, but ultimately that, you know, that work-life balance thing was there and certainly still is there now. Um, the, I think the biggest difference for me was that I was in the office every day, uh, uh, when, you know, when they were real little like that. And finding ways to balance my schedule so that I was home on time. I was leaving on time in the morning. Um, to be honest with you, one of my biggest challenges was leaving at the end of the day on time. I always had one more thing to finish, a little bit more to work towards for my, you know, for my day. And then I would end up getting home late and my husband's elbow deep in toddlers and a baby's crying and making dinner. And to be honest with you, I, I always felt like wherever I was wasn't where I was supposed to be. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. Um, so balancing that scheduling aspect of just physically moving myself between work and home and all the needs that come with it was, was my biggest challenge, um, as a mom, a, a commuting mom of, of young kids before the pandemic.
Speaker 2:And Laurie, your kids are a little bit older, obviously younger pre pandemic as well. We're, were the pressure's the same for you?
Speaker 4:Yeah, this is such a great question. Stephanie and I found that we've been in the pandemic for so long that I've had to like brush aside the fog and say, what was life back like back then, because we're talking about over a year and a half ago now. Um, and we've been so embedded in the pandemic that it's fa the pre pre-life has faded a little. Um, but I guess I'll start off by saying that it really, for me, uh, life pre pandemic and how it looked really depended on the phase and stage and season that my children were in, um, when they were tiny and we were shuttling them to daycare and then ultimately one went to elementary school and we had that double drop off double pickup, uh, nightmare<laugh>. That was a huge stressor trying to, you know, figure out who's gonna be where, when, and who's gonna pick up which kid at which time. Um, as they evolved into both being in elementary school, then we had a lot of like the kid activity stuff after school and on weekends and that, that sort of thing to juggle. Um, I'd say that additionally one of the stressors was definitely work, travel. Um, I have a, you know, Medicare related practice, so my travel is domestic, but it's, you know, pretty much anywhere in the US and it would come in waves. I'd have, you know, three or four months was nothing, and then suddenly have to go three or four places. And that came to a halt during the pandemic. Um, and I think is, has not been unwelcome, I'll say. Um, I guess I'm not a huge fan of the word balance, generally speaking. Um, work life integration works a little bit better for me, but I just sort of wanna call it life. And then I, I will just end on the note that I don't think work life, uh, issues worked for working parents at all pre pandemic. And they've certainly been exacerbated in many, many, many ways during the pandemic, but things weren't good. Childcare was expensive. Uh, boundaries were hard to set. Like things were not set up in a way to support working parents even before the pandemic hit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's actually a great point, um, that both Laurie and Lauren, I think you both hit on is the, the integration, um, between, you know, these two different worlds. And for someone who was pregnant during the pandemic and obviously had no children before the pandemic life, it resonated a lot with me, Lauren, that you were saying. It was just like, you know, one more thing to get outta the, you know, to do before you left the office. Except I would just work, you know, crazy hours. Um, partly because I, I built time partly because, you know, I, I didn't have any other responsibilities except for work. Um, and so pre pandemic, um, I was able to maintain a very, um, unintegrated, unbalanced life in many ways because I didn't have children. Teresa, was that the same for you? Um, pre pandemic and kind of during the pandemic?
Speaker 3:Pre pandemic, yes, I would agree. I mean, without kids I think I, I didn't have, um, restrictions around when I needed to be at work and when I needed to sign off. And so, um, there was, you know, just kind of a constant connections my email. And, um, in some ways there are positives there cuz I could be really flexible with work and really responsive with partners and clients and in other ways it was unhealthy and I didn't use set more boundaries. So, um, I think, you know, it goes both ways.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely. Definitely. So we hit pandemic and I don't know about you guys, but for, to be quite honest, for a while there I was thinking, oh this is, I was paying attention to what was happening with the pandemic, but I was thinking, okay, this is gonna, you know, this is gonna be another SAR and it's gonna be something that's gonna blow over in, you know, a couple of months. You know, I could never have anticipated the scale of this. So I feel like in reality all of us might have had a, okay, wait a second moment that we realize that this is happening and it's, it's going to have a real impact on us. So, um, Theresa, I'll kick it back to you. What, what, when you realized you had that aha moment, things are changing, I can't go into the office or I can't go to the grocery store or whatever, um, and you have a new baby or you're pregnant, what was happening for you as far as not only being a mother, but with your work and your clients and trying to balance those two?
Speaker 3:Yeah, definitely. So I think the moment for me was when my firm moved to work from home, that was the time that I think everything changed and it was obvious that this wasn't going away right away. Um, at that point I had just a couple of weeks left, um, before my due date. And so my, my daughter was born in mid-April, so I was kind of at the end of my pregnancy and it was a really surreal time cuz I think there was just a lot of change for me trying to get ready to be a new mom regardless of the pandemic. And in some ways that was a really great time. I was so excited. I was looking at baby clothes and nesting and there were good things happening, but, um, but it was also really crazy because, um, at work, you know, clients were stressed, they were trying to take care of people, um, over capacity and everything was urgent as they were trying to respond to this pandemic. And we were trying to support them with that. There was kind of this additional stressor and bringing pregnant during the pandemic, like it wasn't just me, I was worried about, it was a lot of unknowns on how it could potentially affect my pregnancy and my baby. And then it, it just was, um, a weirdly isolating, I think to, um, just suddenly not be able to contact family and friends in the same way, um, that I would have before the pandemic at a time that I kind of needed support. Um, you know, at doctor appointments, healthcare professionals had to wear masks. My husband couldn't come to a lot of my appointments and I had to go to a hospital where they were accepting covid patients. So all of that was scary at a time that, you know, it, it, being a new mom and, and being pregnant for the first time is already scary without all of these things happening.
Speaker 2:That actually, all of that resonates with me for sure. It's, it was the excitement of being a new mom, but then the added stress layer of clients going absolutely crazy because this was so novel as far as, you know, um, having to turn down surgeries or, or to reschedule surgeries and, you know, flip units, um, to accommodate, you know, covid patients, um, all the while, um, being excited about baby, but also wondering for your own protection, you know, can I go do this? Can I go do that? Um, I wanna be responsive to my clients, but I'm also eight months pregnant and I'm, I'm really tired today. So all of that really resonates with me. And I, I do wonder for Lori or Lauren, what that experience was like for you guys as well with older kids, which is a little bit different because obviously Teresa and I had very young, um, or unborn children, uh, but you guys actually had, you know, tiny humans, very active, tiny humans running around. So, Lori, Lauren, any thoughts on, on that moment and, and what changed for you guys as well?
Speaker 4:I'm, I'm happy to start. Stephanie, this is Lori. Um, so I, I live in the district of Columbia and we live in this D M V area where we've got Maryland, Virginia, and DC who are all doing slightly different things, although, you know, often similar timelines. And that very first day Maryland went first and Maryland shut down, or at least Montgomery County shut down the schools for two weeks. And I remember laughing and being like, haha, the parents are gonna have to be home for two weeks in Maryland. DC's still going to school. Of course, you know, that all changed and we all wound up being at home and, and two weeks, uh, yeah, whatever, I mean, two weeks grew into many, many months. Um, but for me, the stress really was, oh my gosh. Like I have, I at the time, uh, gosh, what are they now? They're third and fifth. So last year was second and fourth, so they were first and third graders and, um, the teachers at school had just like quickly come up with a lesson plan and structure, but they had exactly 30 minutes a day of live learning for those first couple of months. And the rest of the day, my children were ours, our children were our, and with us all day long. And my husband and I basically tagged team and just swapped back and forth all day long and tried to come up with schedules for them. And, you know, there was no way of bringing in outside help because of all the, uh, risks of covid. And so, I mean, our days were consumed with trying to educate our kids while also trying to hold down jobs. And it was probably some of the hardest couple of months of my life.
Speaker 5:The, yeah, this is Lauren. I would have to agree that the school thing was, was it for me as well. My, my oldest was in school at that point, and, you know, here up in, in New York, we're used to having school closed for days on end because of snow and things like that. But, um, it w so it didn't bother me too much when school was closed for two weeks beginning in March, because there was, there was hope right at that point that, oh, at the end of the month, um, you know, we, we should be good or, and then, then they were gonna make the decision again at the end of May and like, oh, okay, at least we'll get a little bit of time in June. And so there was always that hope along the way that something is we're gonna go back to normal. And then when they didn't go back at the end of May for the last three weeks of school, I, that was, you know, like it for me for sure. Um, and it was really overwhelming to think about because we went from this being, you know, not just, okay, we need to get through two weeks, um, and we need to figure out a way to survive this craziness for two weeks with the kids, but now we're gonna live like this, uh, for a while. And that meant a lot more planning. And, you know, like Lori said, structure to our day about who's doing what. Um, we were very lucky to have, uh, a woman who watches our ki our, all of our kids in, in, um, her home down the street and our kids became her only kids that, that she was, was watching. Um, so she became part of our bubble and, and honestly, one of the biggest stressors I had was, how do we keep her safe? Because she is literally the key to, to our survival during the workday. Uh, because otherwise I would've had a one-year-old, two and a half year old and four-year-old at home with us. Um, and as you all know, that age is very, very, very hands-on. Um, and even when my son was home, uh, we could get him to do work, but because both of us were here, he wanted both of us to do it. And honestly, we just wanted him to get the work done. So it was, it was very demanding e time. Um, and I feel so much for parents like Lori and friends of mine who had their kids home with them every single day. Um, I know that we are very lucky, but, you know, keeping her our, our caregivers safe became a huge, huge concern of mine. Um, and, you know, honestly still is because she is the, the key to our ability to manage this, this pandemic as a family.
Speaker 2:And it's really interesting that you say that, Lauren, because, so I had my son during the pandemic, um, and because of of work, I, I only took about two months off. And when I went back to work, even though we were still at home, even though we had an infant, even though there were two of us in the household just trying to find a balance and so that I could work and my husband could work, I'm billing, you know, it's, it was, um, it was a, a deep, deep struggle, uh, for me personally to try to not only get that, um, billable hour requirement met, but to actually, I mean, you know, how hard it is in general just to, just to actually meet<laugh> the billable requirement, but trying to do that in the context of, oh, well my husband's got this meeting at this time and I need to reschedule this meeting so that I can take baby during this time. Um, I found incredibly difficult. And to your point, uh, a lot of my friends who are also working moms, um, struggled with either trying to find childcare, um, and some of them still to this day are str are struggling to find reliable childcare, um, especially for the older kids who are having to do homeschooling. So it's, I just find it very poignant that you pointed that out because it was definitely the hardest thing for me, um, trying to, to balance two, even though you would think having two people at home, it would make things a lot easier. It was actually way more difficult for us. Um, and it sounds like we all came up with kind of some unique ways to, to kind of attack it. So really quickly, does anyone wanna throw out maybe one or two ways that they, unique ways that they balanced or had better integration during this time? Um, in light of the fact knowing that the pandemic is not letting up. Um, so for me it was trying to make sure that I, um, had like a family calendar, which is terrible. Might I add? It was the worst. I hate scheduling. Um, it was, it was a family calendar and being really diligent with my husband about who was doing what when, and literally working in baby through that calendar. But I don't know if anybody else had any unique routines or, or tips that they came up with to kind of help survive that during the pandemic.
Speaker 5:Ours is kind of awful. Um, and it comes from an awful<laugh>, just the, the kind of situation that can only happen when you have little kids mm-hmm.<affirmative>, um, at sometime early in the pandemic, my youngest, who was one and a half at the time, locked his other two siblings in one of their bedrooms. And so the older two children became terrified to be upstairs by themselves, which meant that every night at bedtime, someone had to sit upstairs until everyone was adequately asleep, which as you all know, can be a very long time<laugh>. Um, but I actually used the time, you know, productively, and I'd sit at the top of the stairs with my computer on my lap, and that became for better or for worse part of my workday. And I would push things, I would, I would deal with things that I hadn't gotten to during the day, um, and push things out for other people, uh, so that it was rolling during the morning maybe while I couldn't be available because we were juggling school in the morning, um, just to keep, keep work things kind of flowing. Um, and in fact, it got so bad that if I stopped typing, my kids would like poke their head up and be like, mommy, why aren't you typing? You need to be working. Um, because it became part of their bedtime routine that, that mommy was working. Um, so it's awful, but it, it was, it really amounts to, to finding, you know, unique ways to manage the workday and, and finding other ways to, to find, to find work time. So we traded on and off and the other person was also downstairs working. Um, but, but yeah, use utilizing that bedtime post bedtime time became really important for us. But unfortunately that just has huge detrimental effects on your ability to, you know, kind of compartmentalize life and work a little bit. Although, you know, to Lori's point, it's more of an integrative thing. Um, it unfortunately meant that work was always happening or always there and ever present. Um, but that is ultimately how we, we managed to get it done.
Speaker 2:Laurie.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I'm happy to hop in. I I love that you raised the split shift, Lauren, which is, you know, know the affectionate term for the, the other work that working parents do when we go back on it at night. And quite frankly, the split shift is something that has been a part of my life since my kids were really little. And, you know, I viewed it pre pandemic as well, you know, I'm gonna leave early to go home and spend bed bath dinner time with them, and then I will go back on and it's sort of the time shifting mechanism that I, and I know many working parents use to, to get the work in, um, while also being present for times that matter for our family. But I'd say one thing that I would highlight that I did during the, particularly during the worst and hardest months of the pandemic for us with kids, was to be fully transparent and to have an out of office message on my, um, email that said, my children are home with me. I am a working parent, and my response will be delayed as I attempt to educate them and respond to your needs. And, you know, I got a lot of positive responses to that message that was on there. And for me, it was also really an attempt to normalize the fact that, um, it's not humanly possible to ignore your children all day and work when you have absolutely no childcare options. So, um, the out of office message was something that I left up for a very long time.
Speaker 2:That's actually a great idea.<laugh>, I actually wish I had thought of that. Um, and, and I feel like people are a lot more understanding now. Uh, you know, I don't wanna say we're post pandemic, but, uh, you know, now that things have kind of settled into a more regular routine, um, I feel like that would be much better received than even pre pandemic to be quite honest. Um, Theresa, I don't know if you had any, any hacks as well or any tips or, or routines that you implemented?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I would just say, um, that for me, working from home after coming back from maternity leave when my daughter was so young, there were positives about being able to do that. Um, and a part of it is that my husband was in his MBA program, so he had a relatively flexible schedule to where we could do the split shift somewhat successfully. He could go do his classes in the evening and, um, work around my schedule somewhat. Um, so I was, I was really lucky in that sense, but I mean, I just got so much more time with my daughter than I would have if I went back to work in the office full-time at three months. Um, then, you know, then I would have, and I think that time is invaluable. I was able to breastfeed longer. I, um, didn't have to pump at the office, which I've heard from a lot of new moms is, is a struggle. So I think that there were just, there were undeniable positives for, for me at, with where I was at, um, as a new parent with being able to, to work from home during that time. That said, you know, I, I mean, I definitely had a lot of the same struggles that, um, that I've heard from you all. I think that a lot of us deal with, um, the schedule by getting back online after dinner and bedtime and making sure that we've met all of our expectations and responded to everyone, um, at the end of the day. And so that just takes away from the time that you could potentially have for yourself<laugh>. Um, so I think that, uh, a lot of this is that we're scrambling to meet everybody else's needs, and it's hard to, um, figure out that time for self-care and working out and, and things that are really important to just make this whole experience sustainable.
Speaker 2:And I, I hear that we have all come up with, you know, creative ways and new routines for handling, you know, life at home. Um, and I imagine that there are people who haven't necessarily been able to fully make that shift. Um, and so I think it's really important because I don't know about you guys, but I don't hear very often a lot of discussion, um, in the workplace all the time of how to actually transition back into the workplace, both physically and just post pandemic. Um, but then also, you know, how do we keep this going, you know, moving forward? So for example, you know, we now have, um, a nanny that helps with our youngest and is going to help me, um, when, when we have our second, but that's not always an option. And so I know a lot of my friends have sent their children to nursery, and so now there are new concerns about, um, safety at the workplace, safety at, you know, nursery or at school or, or, or whatnot. Um, and so I think it's really, it would be great to talk a little bit about, you know, thoughts, tips, um, how to tackle some of these issues. You know, getting back to, to office life post pandemic and trying to find the right integration for the family. And, and I know obviously these are all opinions, um, but would love to, to toss around, um, a few thoughts, especially for, for those of us who may not, you know, have a choice as far as sending kids back to school, um, and they have to do at home, um, or, you know, online learning or the like. So I will kick it off to you, Teresa, since<laugh>, you're the last person that had talked. And then maybe we can just kind of talk openly about, you know, just thoughts and ideas.
Speaker 3:Yeah, sure. I think that this, especially because school just started back and a lot of people are going back in person, but there's new concerns with the Delta variant. This is just a really stressful time for everyone, and parents are trying to make really hard decisions about safety and making sure that, that their kids are, are getting the education that they need. So my daughter is in daycare, um, and she's got like 10 kids in her class and two teachers, and I don't know the, the vaccination status of her teachers. Um, that situation is stressful, especially with kind of how the situation has been developing. And I know that, you know, there are a lot of parents who are in the situation, um, that I'm in where kids are going back to school and they're trying to kind of do a, a cost benefit analysis and, and decide, you know, where what, what activities or what settings make sense, um, to be in that situation and how, how can we be safe about it. Um, so I think that's just, it's a hard time, um, for everybody in, in making this decision. As far as, I think you mentioned, like how, how to deal with routines moving forward. I, I have been kind of doing a hybrid model with going back into the office a couple days a week. And, um, that's, that's worked really well for me, and I think that I'd like to do that. Um, long term moving forward, if, if it's an option, it seems like a lot of employers are, are potentially putting that in place, um, moving forward. And it, it, I think it gives the opportunity to work in person with, with colleagues and in a way that's really important professionally, but also for the days that I don't go into the office, I get to maximize that time with my daughter. I don't have to get ready and, and make the commute. Um, and so just getting quality FaceTime with her to me is so important and I'm trying to get that time wherever I can get it. So having several days a week where, um, where I can, I can use that time, um, with her as opposed to getting to the office is, has been really important.
Speaker 4:I'm happy to jump in here, Stephanie. Um, I've been leading a bunch of sessions lately about how to make that transition back to the office. And what I want to remind everyone who's listening is that, um, if you're listening, you're probably a parent. And if you're not a parent, thank you for listening so that you can learn what's going on. Um, but parents have been through big transitions, back to work before, and so what I'm trying to remind everyone is that there are principles that we can learn from the transition back to work after baby that I think we can also apply to the transitions back to the office. As you know, we go to hybrid schedules, et cetera. And the very first principle that I'd like to put out there is that this is a process and not an event. And I think, you know, it's not like you come back after babies switch the lights on in an office and boom, everything is the same as it was. I think that's the same here, right? I mean, we know that the pandemic ticked takes twists and turns. There's delta. I think we have to give ourselves the, the ability to say, look like, let's, let's have some self-compassion. Let's recognize that this is going to be a couple month long, maybe year long process of transition rather than, you know, next week we're back and everything's the same. Um, whenever I teach new parents about going back to work after parental leave, I encourage people to focus on four themes, and I'll just say those out loud now. And I feel that it, it helps bring some structure to an otherwise sort of chaotic time in people's lives. And the four themes are mindset, logistics, leadership, and community. And so I've been encouraging individuals and employers to sort of anchor on those four themes as you're transitioning back to the office, um, mindset, you know, what daily practices can you do to sort of grind yourself and make sure that you're, um, having even that micro self-care in your day logistics, like thinking through in advance all the implications of going back, whether that's financial implications of commuting and, and childcare and packing lunches and all that sort of stuff, um, to what you need to bring to the office, um, leadership. How can you be a leader in the space of returning? How can you make sure that your colleagues are feeling included, whether they're remote or in person? How can we return in a more inclusive way than maybe we left? And then building community, making sure that, you know, you're connecting with your other working parent colleagues whenever you go back into the office and you're not feeling isolated in the transition. So just a couple of thoughts on what I'm trying to encourage people to think about and really to get conversations going so that, um, it isn't something that we're each trying to struggle with personally and alone.
Speaker 5:Those are super great tips. Uh, and, and, you know, guideposts for parents, certainly returning to work after baby. And I, I agree, I think that they all resonate in this situation, uh, for parents as well, whether you have a little kid, a big kid, one kid or 12 kids. Um, and you know, on the routine concept, you know, as a, as a principal like, like Laurie mentioned, I I think that the concept of a routine when you have kids is rather fleeting because as we all know, as soon as they develop a routine, even as babies, they move on very quickly and there's a new routine. And the same thing goes with, with your kids once, once they're bigger too. Well, you know, we, we just added another kid in school this year, so that means a different door that we have to drop off to and additional backpack to fill in the morning. So, you know, as kids grow in their ages and stages and their needs change over time, your routine has to a adapt as as well. Um, the common thread that I always come back to though is making sure that I ground myself and manage my own mental game as all of this around me is shifting, whether it's because, you know, like the kids are doing something new or they're just older, or there's a crazy pandemic going on. Um, and the, you know, the kind of the, the thing that I always come back to when I'm trying to be mindful about that is this idea that I, I kind of ascribed to a couple years ago when I was really struggling with, with this whole, you know, mom business, well, while managing, you know, client and work expectations at the same time and what it was like to be in a workplace, um, as a mom. And, and my, my methodology is that I am purposefully personal and I think that the pandemic has forced everyone's personal lives kind of to the forefront more so than they they ever were before. Um, but even before the pandemic, because I know that my routine needs to be a certain way, I am purposefully personal with my colleagues, and some people might disagree with that approach, and sometimes I even question the approach. But, you know, I think it goes back to the idea of what does it mean to be a professional? And I was thinking about this, and you know, what constitutes a professional or there's this mentality of what constitutes being a professional that leaves little to no room for the idea that you are an actual person with a personal life and you have things happen to you outside of the four walls of, of your office. And we become trained to apologize for family commitments or emergencies or even things that aren't bad, things that are just personally significant to us. Like the ice cream social at your kid's school, or one of my favorites is the walkathon at, at school. And so we're, we're taught to push down and push past those emotional and personal situations and to juggle our personal life around our professional work and our needs and our schedule. And to be honest with you, over time, the more people that I've worked with in this industry, the best relationships that I have work-wise are with people that I have great personal relationships with. And it creates a sense of trust and confidence in one another. Um, and, and so it was, you know, ha having thought about this for a long time, that I really began to say, no, it's okay if I tell people that I will not be here because I am at my son's school fair or whatever. I, I want them to know that because I want them to know who I am, what's important to me, and I also want to be able to demonstrate to them that I will still get done on your timeline what you need to have done, um, and I, and that I can manage expectations and needs while also having this robust personal, uh, life with my family and friends and, and things like that. So I think the more we continue to push the conversations that have been happening for the last 18 months about the personal side of our lives, uh, the more likely it is to main, you know, continue to be a thing, um, which I think can only help working parents, uh, going forward.
Speaker 2:A and Lori, the, the four things that you mentioned I think are really helpful, and Lauren, the, the two that you hit on just a few minutes ago really resonate with me. And I think this pandemic has been such a good shakeup on, on the, the, the concepts of mindset and community in particular, um, because everything has been in such chaos and disarray that it's, it's almost kind of like a perfect disruptor where, to your point now, there is a new opportunity to create this community, um, that allows for working moms, um, especially in a very demanding field with a lot of complexity, um, to be very honest about where they are and what's, to your point, what's important to them, um, and not be ashamed of, well, it's just really important to me that I get the 15 minutes in the morning with my kids or my daughter or my son, um, that I normally wouldn't have gotten because I was rushing off to to daycare. Um, so I think those are actually really, really good points because in my personal experience, I haven't seen as much community in the past. It has been very, you're here to do work. It's very professional. You might have small talk, you might have, you know, a couple of personal relationships, but it's certainly nothing that was normalized, um, as far as being a working mom and life outside of, of work. Um, and definitely the mindset. I think there's been a huge shift in perspective that mindset is not just this, you know, collateral concept anymore. I mean, it really does impact everything throughout your day and in the day of your children and your clients and work. So, um, I, I thought those were really, really great points from, from everyone. So I know that we're, we're click quickly running out of time. Is there anything anyone wanted to just pop into the, the conversation really quickly before we we wind down? Um, if not, it's been great, but would love to open the floor if anyone has any last minute tips, thoughts, sir, or the like,
Speaker 3:Um, this is Teresa. I'll just say, you know, to the extent that this pandemic can create positive change for working parents moving forward, I think that would be awesome. And I, we've seen, um, maybe some, some changes that might occur moving forward. And I think people are being more open and honest about their personal lives and obligations there, which is really important. I, I think I've heard people say that being a mom is their superpower, and I just, as a new parent, I wanna say, I, I think that's totally true. Um, since I've become a mom, I just think I'm more confident at work and I just don't have time, um, or energy for any kinda insecurity or procrastination because I have this person who's dependent on me and I need to be a role model for her. And so I think it's just, uh, in many ways made me a better lawyer, um, because I've just become a more confident and assertive person. Um, so I, you know, for, for the moms who are working through this, there's been a lot of struggles, but I've also experienced a lot of growth through it too.
Speaker 5:Yeah, Theresa, I love every aspect of what you just said. Um, and, and my last tidbit would be that I hope that we just keep talking about this. I would love to keep talking with all of you about this. Uh, today I feel like this is a topic that we could spend hours talking about because there is so much here mm-hmm.<affirmative>, but my, my biggest hope, you know, post pandemic or, or as we, as we hopefully move beyond the pandemic, is that, you know, these conversations continue because, like Lori said at the beginning, um, many of the struggles that moms have and working parents have right now were struggles that existed before the pandemic. And, you know, the pandemic really brought those issues to the front and center, um, and made them much more of a reality. And, and what I would hate to see happen is, is truly a return to pre pandemic normal, uh, for working parents, because like Lori said, um, it, it wasn't built and it was not sustainable for, for working parents. So let's keep the conversation going and let's continue to, you know, support each other and have these conversations, um, with each other and with coworkers and, and, and hopefully it'll continue to be a voice of a col, a collective voice of positive change.
Speaker 4:I so love all of this, and Theresa, I'm thrilled that you ended on the note of these superpowers that parents have. Um, I just want to say that the neuroscience actually shows that there, the most neuroplasticity that we have in our entire adult life is the year after giving birth to a child, which means that, yeah, there's baby brain and fog of, you know, not sleeping and all that, but there's also baby brain, which is like the explosion that our brains are able to do. And all the firing and wiring and, you know, the new neural networks we're able to create because we are parents, that is also documented in the science. So I just wanna elevate that and say yes to continuing this conversation. Yes. To keep talking about bringing the personal, um, to the forefront and to knowing that we're not doing this working parent thing alone. I'll also just put in a plug for parent related, um, affinity groups and networks. I think there's such powerful tools that employers can use to help the working parents find one another and to help them feel supported in their work environments. So more of those, please.
Speaker 2:All great stuff. I, I feel very uplifted, um, leaving the conversation. I agree with everything. Um, everyone has just said at the affinity groups, um, feeling more empowered as a mom. Um, I think you guys have, have brought such a wealth of knowledge to this conversation, and hopefully it does continue and I know each of us will in our respective coves, but also collectively continue to push this. So, um, Theresa, Laurie, Lauren, thank you all so, so much for taking the time and sharing your wisdom and experience. I personally found it very, very helpful and uplifting and empowering, um, to kind of hear your different perspectives and, and kind of the path forward. So thank you. Thank you, thank you so much for doing this. Um, and hopefully all of these great things continue.
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