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AHLA's Speaking of Health Law
Burnout in the Workplace: What Can Health Law Professionals Do?
Jen McDowell, founder, (re)connect consulting, llc, speaks with Danica Sun, Associate Counsel, Cleveland Clinic Florida, and Keeley Burns, Managing Counsel, Cigna, about the problem of burnout in health law professionals. They discuss the worsening rates of burnout among health law professionals and why repairing relationships with coworkers and talking about workplace feelings is crucial for strengthening workplace relationships and reducing rates of burnout. From AHLA’s Women’s Leadership Council.
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Speaker 2:All right, welcome everyone. I am so excited to be here today, uh, with us on this podcast with you. My name is Jen McDowell and I am the founder of reconnect consulting. And I am here today talking with Kelly Burns, uh, who works at Cigna and Danica son who works at Cleveland clinic in Florida. And we are here today to talk about the rates of burnout and health professionals. Uh, we'll be doing a Q and a style podcast today where we'll talk about the worsening rates of burnout amongst health law professionals. And we'll also talk a little bit about this concept called repair and why repairing relationships with our coworkers and talking about our feelings at work is crucial for strengthening workplace relationships and reducing rates of burnout. So before we get started Danica and Keeley, I don't know if you want to give a little shout out to everybody and a little introduction of yourself, Danny, if you want to start.
Speaker 3:My name is Danica Sohn, associate counsel for the Florida region. They've been clinic. Uh, we now have five hospitals and about 20 to 30 outpatient clinics. And I'm one of only five attorneys located in Florida. And I most often work, um, directly with, um, providers, um, relating to patient care sheets,
Speaker 2:Right, Kaylee.
Speaker 4:All right. Hi everyone. This is Kelly Burns. I'm managing counsel at Cigna where I have a team of attorneys and non-attorneys, and we kind of do all things, state department of insurance regulation. Um, our team is a little unique because we're spread all over the country, supporting clients all over the country and world. And when I'm not at Cigna, I have two little boys who I chased around all over the place, and I'm just really excited to be here and share my own kind of personal thoughts and experiences on burnout.
Speaker 2:Great. I'm so excited to have you both here, um, you know, Keely, you not have known each other for years, uh, through our work and Danica, we actually met, so here's a plug for the AHLA mentor, mentee connections, and we met through, um, through that. So, um, it's been great working with both of you over the past couple of years. So to kind of level set, let's talk a little bit about what exactly is burnout and why is it so concerning for those of us who've worked in health law. So, um, the world health organization, and not within the past couple of years, put out a definition of burnout that they have defined as a syndrome that's conceptualize as the resulting from chronic workplace stress that has not been successfully managed. So there are basically three dimensions of burnout under this food definition. The first is that you have these feelings of energy or depletion or exhaustion. I know I have felt that way in my legal practice. Um, the second one is that there is increased mental distance from one's job or feelings of negativism or cynicism related to your job. And then the third is a reduced professional efficacy. And so why is this also relevant for health lawyers? It's because this chronic stress is linked to higher rates of errors, safety issues, lack of concentration, lack of focus and working memory problems. And so what does that mean? That translates to a higher malpractice risk, not only for us as it's pretty easy, but for the health care providers that we often work with and support. So I think everybody can appreciate that burnout is really important to get our arms around as an industry and across profession. And so with that, I'd like to talk a little bit about, you know, how you both Danica and Keeley are seeing burnout in your organizations. Now from an organization standpoint, burnout can lead to higher rates of turnover, absenteeism, decreased productivity, and impacts to quality safety and even patient or client satisfaction. So tell me a little bit, um, let's start with Keely, let's start with you. What, when it comes to burnout, what are, see, what are you saying in your organization?
Speaker 4:Yeah, and I think it just, um, things are just happening faster and with higher consequences for the people we serve and our employees. So there's just this, I mean, we always want to get things right, but you know, specifically the last year, there's just, just the need to really get things right in a faster and more meaningful way at work while also kind of dealing with the enormity of what's happening at the w in the world and with our families. So, um, I think that's just having a really big impact on employees and then, then corresponding rates of burnout and kind of at the same time, dealing with this, you know, genuine mentioned like an increased isolation and kind of this sense of belonging, um, that can really have a big impact on feelings of burnout as well. And just kind of increased loneliness while at the same time, just putting it out there that that workloads are sometimes just not at sustainable levels. Um, there's just a lot of demands on our time, um, which can cause chronic burnout and just prolonged stress on, on attorneys and health law professionals in general. Um, but I do think, um, one thing at least within my organization is that there just has finished it or recognizing, um, that burnout is not just on us as individuals, but rather it's really, um, an organization wide priority kind of preventing and addressing it. And I think my organization has really been a leader in this and taking some really meaningful steps to address burnout.
Speaker 2:Cool. Well, I'm interested to hear a little bit more about that. Danica, I'll ask you the same question. What are you saying within your own organization?
Speaker 3:Um, from my perspective, I work directly with, um, clinical leaderships and even caregivers who are on the floor. I mean, from my perspective, I can, I see that they're exhausted, um, from their perspective they've been dealing with, um, the COVID pandemic for, you know, year and a year and a half at this point. Um, they're exhausted and I think it's exacerbated a lot of the issues that are already kind of, um, developing before COVID like staffing shortages, wellness issues. You have an aging population in Florida, maybe more accelerated than the rest of the rest of the region. Um, behavioral health issues, um, you know, increased level of poverty and so access to care. Has it been an issue for patients? And so I think it's led to our caregivers feeling, um, enormous, you know, amount of pressure. And in turn, they're calling the law department, we're calling myself and, um, you know, I'm kind of seeing the firsthand.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So it sounds like you all are experiencing real consequences as a result of burnout in your day-to-day practices. So I guess, you know, Danica, if I can follow up a little bit with that, you know, we, we had talked about how the pandemic has, um, played a role. Can you talk a little bit more about what's causing burnout in your organization?
Speaker 3:I think just like Achille sad about everything accelerating, for example, I would say our tech accelerated quite a bit during the pandemic. Um, you know, prior to the pandemic, my organization is still in the beginning stages of, um, using telehealth more frequently. And so it led us to kind of, to, um, you know, really become experts in tele-health guidance, especially with the waivers. Um, we introduced a lot of new technology. We're doing a lot of meetings remote what's, so it led to a lot of education on, um, health it and, um, you know, I think that did cause stress on top of our caregivers having to work directly with the patients, they were also living in hoodies apology and following your rules, especially in regards to care, you know, over till ankle.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I know Danica, one of the other things you and I have talked about sometimes is sort of changes within the dynamic of the patient population as well and how that is making the work environment within the hospital system more complex. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?
Speaker 3:Sure. I would say, um, the pandemic is maybe exacerbated, um, a lot of behavioral health concerns in patients. And so we've seen an increase and, um, in code gray events, which are involving, um, physical violence, um, I think it's also led to an increase in, uh, filing of patient grievances. So that pressure on top of our caregivers doing their normal work, they're also guarding against violence. Um, you know, trying to, you know, find a way to resolve patient grievances. And so I think it's really just heightened, um, maybe the mental health issues that are already at play in our patient population, but it got exacerbated because of COVID.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And from a legal standpoint that brings across your desk, I imagine a lot more complicated cases that you're having to try and sort out and provide support for your provider staff
Speaker 3:On absolutely
Speaker 2:Scary stuff. So, um, I guess, Kiely, Danica, anything else that you can think about from your perspective about what you're seeing with respect to burnout in your organizations or in your team?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think one unique thing that I have going on, I mentioned that, you know, I work remotely and so does my entire team and we're spread across the entire country. And I think, um, you know, the clients we support are also really diverse geographically and, you know, the, the whole work at home thing, it can definitely be a blessing and a curse. And I think thinking about burnout when it comes to the unique challenges, it presents when you're not in the office together and you can't be connecting, um, in person and it, it just presents its own unique challenges with trying to prevent feelings of isolation. And so I think just being remote, um, presents different challenges when it comes to, to burn out and just being aware of it and like focusing on, especially the people, um, who I supervise, just making sure they feel connected to my team. And then the organization as a whole is really important to me.
Speaker 2:Got anything else from your standpoint?
Speaker 3:Absolutely. I echo, um, heli slots. I mean, I started actually the very beginning of the pandemic cell for the most part. I met most of my coworkers and anyone who's been onboarded after me, um, virtually and actually a lot of my, um, clinical leadership partners as well. I've really had to develop and start these relationships for the most part remotely. Um, given the different parameters we had on working in person versus working virtually. And so it's been a unique challenge for me to serve everyone for the most part, including my internal team and external partners, um, all virtually
Speaker 2:Yeah. And. I know, um, your team has been in the office at least part-time for a little bit, but I imagine that the stress that's on when we talk about burnout being caused by chronic stress and there's probably some stress associated with, uh, being in the office, being at home. Um, anything you can think of with respect to how sort of the shift and return to work has kind of impacted your teams?
Speaker 3:Sure. My team, a lot department, um, actually ended up[inaudible] model. So everyone is expected to be an office and at least one to three days a week. And so, um, that's been a change because I think at first we were all virtual and then I think it was an appointment, came back a little briefly in person. And so adjusting to that everyone has their own custom, you know, different schedules given their lifestyle, um, adjusting to that. Now what day am I going to come to the office? Versus what day am I going to be at home? It's kind of, um, you know, you've, you've had to figure out how to, you know, deal with your project management.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's just so much, and I think you all have done a really good job highlighting some of the unique issues that we as health lawyers face when it comes to burnout Keely, there was something that you said that, you know, kind of resonant resonated with me, this idea, like we're working faster. Um, I, you know, I know when I was practicing health law, you know, the phrase do more with less was sort of a mantra. Um, and while that's not unique to healthcare necessarily, it's especially relevant though for us as healthcare professionals, because we all feel the strain that the entire healthcare system has to cut costs, whether it's driven from ACA related reforms or otherwise. And so there's also this pressure to reinvent healthcare delivery. There have been a spate of mergers that allow for vertical integration of healthcare delivery. And of course you all have so eloquently talked about the COVID specific impacts of burnout and healthcare. You know, I think Healy again, you said this concept of pushing to work faster, do, uh, do more, get more creative with how we support our business partners. Um, all just has really made it a lot more challenging to be a health lawyer in this current environment. So what I would love to do is kind of have you asked me a couple of questions to see if there any scenarios you can post to me that would be helpful to you and our listeners. So let's, let's have it. What kinds of questions do you have for me?
Speaker 3:Sure. Diana Danica, um, what unique burnout issues would you see, would you say you've seen amongst health law professionals besides I know Kelly and I are on the opposite sides of the spectrum, but there's plenty of other types of health professionals in between us. What would you say you've seen so far?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I, I think the issues are pretty common within health, health, law professionals. All of us are feeling the strain, whether we're, uh, you know, support staff attorneys, uh, finding new ways to provide financing for healthcare. Um, you know, so the entire health law community attorneys and non-attorneys is feeling this strain much in the same way that health lawyers have.
Speaker 4:And then Jen kind of along those lines, um, I know we've had conversations about this in the past and they've been like really helpful. So just why is it important to talk about burnout at work and with ourselves and our teams?
Speaker 2:Yeah. And you know, healing, I love this question because I think it it's sort of underlies the bigger issue, which is namely, you know, we're really hesitant to talk about our feelings and needs in the workplace. There's sort of this unwritten rule that it's not okay to talk about your feelings and needs in the workplace. And when, when we talk about burnout, really, you know, the solutions for burnout are one of the solutions for burnout is being able to talk about what we need and setting some boundaries so that we can, um, have some space between our work and our personal lives. Um, you know, the reality is, is that just because you go to work, you don't check your feelings at the door when you turn on your laptop or you walk through the doorway into the hospital. Um, but yet this myth that we can't talk about, our feelings continues to persist, you know, and the other reason why I think that happens is because there are these fears that we have about, we don't want to appear in a certain way for women. A lot of times it's pushy or bossy. Men may be reluctant to talk about their feelings and needs in the workplace because they don't want to be perceived as weak. You know, the other thing that there's often this sense of is that I, I don't want to, I don't like feeling out of control and if we let kind of our emotions rise to the surface, well, we'll lose control of that. As attorneys also, we suffer from this positive and negative skill of being able to be really stoked when we're representing our clients, but that can translate into suppressing our own needs, whether they're physical or emotional and women lawyers in particular are really good at this because there are caregivers child-rearing and women often have more responsibilities in the home that also forces them or requires them to, you know, balance their time amongst competing priorities. As lawyers. We also have sort of this strong sense of judgment. And we also have this fear of being perceived as weak. So not only do we have to sort of the everyday fears around talking about our feelings and our needs and burnout in the workplace, but there's sort of this really heavy sense of judgment that attaches to it in the legal community. The irony though, is that not talking about your feelings and your needs and what you need to, to minimize burnout also kind of, you know, we do all these things because we think it's okay not to talk about them, but the irony is that all of that is really false because not talking about your, your needs shapes, a person's perception of you, if you're not talking about the fact that you have too much on your plate, then the other person doesn't know that, and they are making assumptions about your perceived workload or your attitude without having sort of the full benefit of seeing what's on your plate. You know, if you think of it like an iceberg, and you're only showing people sort of what's above the surface, uh, whether it's your feelings or your needs or boundaries or workload, um, you know, you're getting partial feedback from the other person because you're not allowing them to see your whole self. And if you, again, kind of go back to that concept of an iceberg, you both know probably that there was a lot more to the iceberg that's under the surface. The other thing that is kind of important to note is that when you're not talking about your feelings, what boundaries you need, when it comes to burnout, you're, you're allowing others, like I said, to kind of fill the void with their own ideas. And so when you are more vocal about what you need and setting boundaries and asking for help to calm out burnout, uh, that helps fill that void with accurate information. So the other person that you're working with can have an informed conversation and choice when working with you. Um, you know, I think, yeah, I think those are probably the main things that I think are really important about talking about burnout at work.
Speaker 3:John, what advice would you give? Like a more junior, um, in-house legal counsel like myself. I love advice spray. Great. I know we've had this conversation about a year and some change to go when I first started, what advice would you give to a younger or more junior counsel asked if I start that conversation with your managing counsel?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I think a good way to do that is to just start the conversation. Um, you know, there's research out there that says that, you know, burnout is caused by an imbalance between job demands and job resources and job resources are those things that are part of your job that give you motivation and energy and stimulate personal growth and learning. And so, you know, these conversations can be really hard, but I think, you know, the way that you approach it with senior counsel is express your intent of, I want to work with you more effectively. I want you to know me more. I want your help because a lot of people, you know, I, I saw a phrase recently. It was like something like people want, uh, people want advice. They don't want to be told what to do. So I think if you're approaching this conversation with your leadership in terms of how, how can you help me? What advice can you give to me to help manage this? Um, you know, it, it helps facilitate the conversation. And when you are having these sort of conversations where you're both sharing, it builds those high quality relationships, um, that are really considered to be a job resource or one of the things that helps combat burnout. And so when you're having these open conversations with your leadership, it becomes really important to both your physical and emotional health to, to, to have these conversations, to memorize burnout.
Speaker 4:And then what about like the other side of things? So I think you have really great advice and insights for leaders. So what can leaders in health law do right now? Both for themselves and their teams.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I love this question. Um, and I think for me, it comes down to a simple acronym acronym that I like to use, which is ASP or aware share care. So the first step is when you start with awareness, it means you're getting more aware and in touch with what you're feeling, what you need when it comes to burnout, setting boundaries and emotional connection with your colleagues. Um, you can also ask yourself questions like, are you happy, sad, scared, or angry, and maybe you're in a particular moment feeling lots of emotions at once. The second step or share is kind of once you've gotten that level of awareness with respect to what's going on and own head and in your own life, it's important to kind of get curious about where that is coming from and then share, which is the S in that acronym share that insight with your colleagues. It's really hard because as I talked about, we often have this fear of how we're going to be perceived when we're talking about our personal lives and our needs with our coworkers, but it gets easier. The more that you practice it. And when you are giving people this insight into what's going on with you underneath the surface, it kind of provides a roadmap for how people can engage with you more effectively, and also teaches people, people that your feelings matter. It gives you an opportunity to be heard. And in some instances that might result in change that behavior within your colleagues, which is really validating for what you're experiencing. The other thing that I think is really cool about the sh share component is that it can be a self perpetuating because when you are sharing, you learn more about each other, that learning builds trust, and then that trust builds connection. And then there are studies that show that when you have that connection, that's what builds resilience and helps reduce burnout. And it also helps teams navigate change more effectively. So the third piece of this, as you might not be surprised to know is care. And I think once you've kind of done this work on yourself, it's time to reciprocate and inquire about what, how others are feeling about what's happening at work, or even in their personal life. If they're comfortable talking about it, it's really important to create that safe space, open dialogue. And when you are, you know, going through the share phase, you were modeling that behavior, um, that you want to see for the team. And so in that way, you kind of being really intentional about creating that safe space. You know, the other thing that I sort of know, at least I struggled with this when I was a leader and I still do in my everyday life, is that when I'm talking with a friend or a loved one about something that they're struggling with, I get this overwhelming sense that I have to fix it. And I think a lot of leaders are driven by the care and compassion that we have for our teams, and we want to fix whatever it is that they're struggling with. And so, you know, I think though it's really important to slow down and just really listen and help understand the role that you play in supporting them. Um, and to help them feel that they're not alone. A lot of times they just need a sounding board and a place to talk things out. They don't necessarily need help fixing the problems, but by creating that safe space and taking the time or the care to ask about what they're feeling, I think that's really helpful. So ask the where share care. And I will say that it's really important for leaders to do this in an intentional way. You know, the other thing that I noticed when I was working in corporate America and as a lawyer in particular, is there's a lot of emphasis on conciseness, but kind of going back to that iceberg analogy, there is so much going on that that is left on set. And when you share your narrative and really kind of, um, take the time to talk about everything that's going on in your head and to set that, um, that baseline and that framework for a conversation, it really helps add value to a conversation. The challenge though, and this era of do more with less and, you know, working faster is that that takes time. And so you have to really commit to taking the time to slow down and have those conversations, because it's easy for those, um, those connection building moments to pass you by. If you don't take this intentional time to do that. The other thing that you may want to do as leaders is kind of verbalize that you'd like to, to improve or enhance the relationships you have with your team. Because I think at least from my standpoint on the receiving end, if my boss has never asked me, you know, how am I, how am I happy today? Right. They never asked me a question like that. And I then start to get questions like that from my boss. It kind of is off putting. And so I think having a really good conversation about how you want to shift the relationship and your intent behind kind of these changing dynamics really well will help with an intentional promotion of connection building. Um, Kelly, you had also mentioned something earlier about, or maybe it was Danica. I think it was Danica. You mentioned something about going back into the office. And I think being intentional about when are you in the office at the same time, so you can have those face to face connections and Keely when you're working with your remote team, being intentional in team meetings. And one-on-ones to set that time, to have that connection building time,
Speaker 3:John, you alluded to, um, a level of care that's needed in order to be able to share, um, as an individual contributor to a team. Can you tell me about what I can do to provide care to myself? Like what's, what are some of the best, um, or best tips you've seen best practices that you've seen to combat burnout?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, I mean, I think the cool thing is that this concept of ask to really be used for anybody they're universal strategies, because when, whether you're a leader or a individual contributor or the CEO or the health law attorney, when you're taking time to slow down and think about what you need and what sort of boundaries you need to set, um, you know, that's really important and that strategy works for everyone. You know, I think when everybody on the team kind of appreciates these rules and, and agrees to make the choice that you play by this playbook, we all in, in a way have the power to create that safe space for our teams. And we all have a way to contribute to the culture of supporting and connecting with one another. Um, yeah. So, and I think we all can play a role in, you know, getting awareness up validating and discussing not only our own feelings and needs, but the needs, our coworkers.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Jen, and that, I think it all sounds great in theory, and in a perfect world, we will all do that, but I can think of situations where it doesn't initially like strike me as the, the right approach. So for example, um, you know, maybe you have a contentious meeting or conversation with a colleague or a business partner, and maybe they're not really on board with the playbook, they don't understand it. What, what do you think is the best course of action in that situation?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, Healy, that's a great question because the reality is, is that everybody has a different relationship with their feelings and their emotions and their willingness to talk about them. And I think it's really important to kind of meet people where they are. The interesting thing though, is that when you have one of these conversations, that's consent contentious, or maybe someone hurts your feelings, you know, that's where this concept of repair comes in. And I wrote an article for the October, like connections magazine, uh, with, in partnership with the women's leadership council that kind of talks about this concept of repair. So repairs is basically this concept that's rooted in psychotherapy. Um, and it can, and from, for my purposes, when I was writing this article, roof repair means both in the heat of the moment types of statements that you can make, uh, to prevent, uh, conversation or negativity from kind of escalating out of control. But I think there's also another aspect of repair that's really important, which is these after the fact communications that you can, that you can have with a coworker when something, maybe doesn't when a conversation doesn't go, as well as you hoped that could be, it could be going to your kind of worker after the fact and saying, Hey, that, that conversation did not work. That did not go the way I wanted to, or I know I sent some things that were rude or hurtful and kind of owning your part in the conversation. Um, but being able to sort of revisit the fact that there has been a strain on the relationship and make a conscious effort to try and rebuild that connection and move your relationship forward. So that's how I would kind of, uh, you know, what, that's, what I would recommend in that situation. Maybe where you have sort of a contentious conversation with a coworker or even a coworker who maybe is not as open or willing to talk about their feelings with you,
Speaker 3:John, how can you rebuild a strange relationship, particularly when, and, you know, for killing nice case we're virtual most of the time, how do you rebuild a spring relationship that really got strained in the virtual world? How do you fix that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I, I do think it takes a great, a greater deal of intention, even more so than in-person communications, because it's hard to build connection when you're not in the same room. Um, you know, I do think that a lot of the strategies that you apply, um, whether you're in person or virtual can, can work this in much the same way. So it's, you know, doing these things like acknowledging, you know, that it didn't go well and verbalizing that to your coworker. It can also include things like, um, you know, taking some time to examine your role and maybe how a conversation kind of went off the rails and also taking time to consider their perspective. Because, you know, in the article I talk about this adage, there are three sides to every story, yours, mine, and the truth. And so being able to kind of take a step back when cooler heads prevailed and, uh, be able to kind of see the fuller picture, I think also helps give you perspective. Um, you know, again, if you're, you're talking with your coworker and you're saying, Hey, that didn't go well. Or, Hey, I really think we have some opportunity to work together more effectively, and here's what I need in order to make that happen. I think those are sort of helpful openings to, to, to, um, introduce this concept and have this conversation with coworkers. Um, you know, the other thing that's really important, it can be really hard is if you said something or done something that has been a trigger for someone else, it's really important to say, you're sorry, because even if you, maybe haven't intended to make a person feel bad or to anger them, the reality is, is that that was the impact of your behavior. And so taking the time to acknowledge that is really important, again, whether you're in person or remote, um, other strategies that can be helpful, you know, particularly at work is when you're looking for common ground. Look, we are both trying to serve our patient population or our business partners. We both want this project to succeed and we have an interest in, you know, finding a way to work through this together. You know, finding that common ground. It can also be non-work things like, Hey, you like vanilla ice cream and I like vanilla ice cream, right? Like let's find ways to make each other human and to appreciate the areas where we have intersection because, you know, I think you can both appreciate, I think we both talked about the staff is that there is so much more that we as a community have in common than we have as differences. And right now in the environment that we live in, it's really easy to forget that. But focusing on what we share in common can be a really helpful way to sort of reboot a relationship. And, you know, I think the last thing is also sort of be patient, especially if you're in a situation Danica where the, the relationship has eroded over time, it takes time to sort of rebuild that trust and to get to the point where you feel comfortable working with this person again. But I think sort of being really intentional about, you know, rebuilding that conversation, having that conversation about the fact that you want to rebuild the relationship intention. I think I said that wrong intentional about rebuilding the relationship and having that conversation about rebuilding your relationship is really important because again, you've got to get your intent out there so that everyone understands the place that you're coming from.
Speaker 4:Janet. I think you've shared just a lot of really awesome ideas for everyone. And you also mentioned, um, some reasons why this might be hard and maybe this conversation has made some listeners uncomfortable, but how does ignoring, um, feelings make just connections harder and the burnout we're trying to avoid an evitable and w what's really like the bottom line result of ignoring feelings and why is it worth the investment for the people listening? Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. That's a great question because I know, you know, this has been a journey for me, uh, and even now I still think, Ooh, feelings yuck. Um, but I think the reality is that when you talk about your feelings, one, it helps you get into with your own needs, right? You know, a lot of people sort of appreciate that pain as a warning sign for, you know, something they bond within your body and kind of taking the time to sit with your emotions and be able to verbalize them, helps you get a greater understanding of what's going on with your, your mind and your body and what you need. And then when you communicate that, like I said, it kind of becomes sort of a self perpetuating cycle cycle when you show that you're human people relate to that fact. You know, I think people, we all have this perception that we have to be super, super heroes and in our daily lives and then our legal practices, but, you know, it's the connection that we see, uh, oh, you're human, oh, you're afraid of this too. You know, it's, it's really important to be able to have those conversations, to build that connection, rebuild that trust her, strengthen that trust and all of those things are critical for reducing burnout in the long run. Um, so I, I guess I would encourage you, you know, also, you know, if you're interested in this idea of talking about your feelings and, and how it can help reduce burnout, you know, start with your S your easier relationships, where there's some safety in the relationship. Because even if you have great relationships with a coworker, there's still more you can do to build those relationships. Um, doesn't necessarily start with your most stoic stodgy, you know, business partner who may take some time to warm up, but, um, you know, believe in yourself, believe that your, you know, your feelings matter, communicate that boundary, that your feelings matter to your coworkers, and I think be patient, right. The other thing that will happen is as you kind of start to dabble in this things are going to go awry, right? You're going to have the best of intentions when you are giving feedback to someone about the fact that they hurt their feelings, and it's going to sort of make them defensive, or it can make them defensive. Um, and so, you know, understand that everybody's kind of starting or take the position that everybody's starting from, you know, doing the best that they possibly can particularly will be in the midst of a global pandemic, um, and kind of give people the grace to, to, um, to keep trying, um, I guess the other thing that I would say sort of in a closing moment is, you know, have some awareness about the ways that you're communicating with people about your feelings and needs. You know, I there's this concept that, um, the Stanford MBA program espouses, uh, this class on interpersonal dynamics that they teach it's colloquially refer to as touchy feely. And it really talks a lot about how you are perceived by your coworkers and how you can communicate with your coworkers in a way to improve interpersonal dynamics. And so they have this concept called staying on your side of the net, where they talk about these conversations, being like a tennis match, where you're on one side of the tennis net and, you know, your intent, you know, your motivations, you know, your, your thoughts, what goes over the net though, is this concept of your, is your behaviors. And it's actually your behaviors that the other person on the other side of the net sees and response to that on their side of the net, they're having feelings, thoughts, responses, emotions, and response to the behavior that they are observing. And then that translates back as behavior that comes across the net. So it's kind of a cycle of the intent stays on our side of the net, that the behavior goes over the net, and that's what we observe and see. So when you're having these conversations with people, it can be really helpful to stay on your side of the net and talk about things from your perspective. You know, I see that my behavior may have hurt you. I did not intend that I it's subtle changes like instead of when you cross over, let me say this also. So when you cross over the net, you have what you can often run into this concept of Patrick Houston-based feedback, where you're making assumptions about the other person's intent. And so taking the example of, um, you know, someone who, um, hurt your feelings, because they kept interrupting you in a meeting, instead of saying something like you're rude for interrupting me, right. I felt disrespected. So you're staying on your side of the net, you're speaking from your perspective, um, um, uh, how their behavior was observed and how it impacted you rather than sort of leveling that accusation that they're rude and they don't respect you. Um, because again, they may have had a fight with their spouse before they came to work and they were in a bad mood and they just, they had no patient. So, um, so again, I kind of, you know, appreciating that we all kind of are coming from the best of intentions, having the patients staying on your side of the net and having the courage to sort of speak for yourself. So it's kind of a long answer to your question, but, um, but yeah, so I'm so grateful that you would have both been part of this podcast with me. And, uh, I loved having you here. And I hope that these tips that we kind of talked about were, are useful to both of you and you can apply some of them in your daily practice and useful to the listeners as well. So I hope everyone has a great day and we will see you again soon.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening. If you enjoy this episode, be sure to subscribe to AHLA, speaking of health law, wherever you get your podcasts to learn more about AHLA and the educational resources available to the health community, visit American health law.org.